this felt weeeeird...

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

what would you prefer?

[/ QUOTE ]
Looking at this hand, I am pretty sure that this is not the best way to play it, but I am not completely sure what the best way is though, which is why I responded as I did. I would three-bet preflop, in which case the hand would play out differently.

If I called preflop, I would usually raise the flop. A flush draw with overcards in this spot is a big hand so you really don't mind putting more chips in the pot, but also you are often going to end up with just king high, so you certainly don't mind giving the opponent chances to fold. So this is pretty much the opposite of the sort of situation where I would want to call down, which would be one where I do hate being reraised and forced to put a ton of money in the pot and also one where I don't have much folding equity (i.e., where I don't signficantly increase my chance of winning by raising since the only hands that fold are ones that are way behind).

[talentdeficit]

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i like raising the turn. it's not a disaster if you get three bet and most of the time you miss it costs the same as cc, cc.

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Whats he folding on the turn that you want him to fold?

The only reason I see to raise is to get him to a fold a hand he will only put a bet in on the river with if he hits
But since this board is all rags most people will just keep firing, especially when some tag in position (surf) has shown no love for his hand. Also villian here doesnt have hsi full compliments of outs either.


heh, I dont mean to turn into surfs unofficial champion in this thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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i doubt he folds much of anything here, but that's fine, since it includes hands we're already ahead of and hands we have a billion outs against and it discourages him from betting the river so we usually get a showdown for the same price anyways.

[Surf]

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I am pretty sure that this is not the best way to play it, but I am not completely sure what the best way is though

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking, and was why i posted it.

I'm working on getting the "OMOg fDdrawoueeoRAIIIIISE!" mentality out of my system. So, what benefits do raising provide in this situation?

-He's rarely folding A-hi unless I can get some help from the board in the form of dangerous-looking overcards. This doesn't provide a benefit over my line b/c i can freeshowdown raise if those same scare cards hit and call when safe cards hit and i don't have any fold equity.

-he's not folding a pair, and he may 3bet me on the flop or c/r the turn with top / 2nd pair type hands. Also when he bet-3bets the flop i have to suspect him of being on a draw as well, however i forfeit the pot the times he is on a draw b/c i'm left folding the river UI.

-if i'm ahead, i can fold him. This isn't a "benefit" per se in such a small pot because he almost always has 4-5 outs in which case i vastly prefer him to keep betting instead of folding.

I think if i had JcTc or Tc9c raising the flop or turn would be clearly correct. With K-hi or A-hi the benefits of raising largely disappear since we cannot fold a better hand and we prefer a worse one to keep betting.

Surf

[Renaud Desferet]

One not mentioned additional problem with this line is that he can safely value bet Ace high.

[ArturiusX]

I'd prefer your line with Axs rather then KJs.

[Dan BRIGHT]

id raise preflop and pound the flop with chips too (valuetown, its for value, remember). Just put him on TT and give yourself 15 outs on the flop (st8floosh draw stylle) if it makes you feel good.

I like your line better with KJo no flush draw (assuming you didnt raise preflop). I do this one all the time and my opponents show me random ui cheese at showdown all the time as well. Of course sometimes I look like a donkey calling down king hi vs a set, but thats blind battles for you.

[Jeffage]

I'd most likely raise preflop, but calling is ok sometimes. Either way, I would definitely raise the flop or the turn in this scenario - mix it up.

Jeff

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm working on getting the "OMOg fDdrawoueeoRAIIIIISE!" mentality out of my system. So, what benefits do raising provide in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

At some point when I was on my break this forum decided that we shouldn't be semi-bluffing as much. I think that's retarded. I give a lot of action on a lot of boards, and I think that's pretty key to my metagame in shorthanded play, which involves being tough to read and getting paid off a lot.

[Dan BRIGHT]

Things to think about: (this isnt really semi bluff to bet and raise lots on the flop it is for value... on the turn the equity teeter-totters and then it becomes a semibluff)



Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 8h 4c 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.1515 % 45.15% 00.00% { AdTs }
Hand 2: 54.8485 % 54.85% 00.00% { KcJc }


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 8h 4c 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 43.7374 % 43.74% 00.00% { ThTs }
Hand 2: 56.2626 % 56.26% 00.00% { 6c5c }



Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 8h 4c 3c
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 45.8586 % 45.86% 00.00% { ThTs }
Hand 2: 54.1414 % 54.14% 00.00% { KcJc }

[jason_t]

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I'm working on getting the "OMOg fDdrawoueeoRAIIIIISE!" mentality out of my system. So, what benefits do raising provide in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

At some point when I was on my break this forum decided that we shouldn't be semi-bluffing as much. I think that's retarded. I give a lot of action on a lot of boards, and I think that's pretty key to my metagame in shorthanded play, which involves being tough to read and getting paid off a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The metagame value to semibluffing has and always will be there, but I think a lot of people feel that the fold-equity part of semibluffing is disappearing as more and more players seem to be on the lookout for it. No one ever folds anything anymore.

That said, I think this flop could be raised for value.