Orange Zone open-pushing

[TightIsRight]

PLEASE READ DESCRIPTION BEFORE RESPONDING TO THE HAND

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about what to do in these opening in LP situations when the stacks are short. In the situation below, I actually had about 5,600 and just open-pushed. I think this is a pretty standard play w/ my M of 4, hand, and position (that is, opening in LP). My real problem w/ these types of situations is when I have slightly more chips and it’s unclear whether to just push, stick in some sort of non-push raise, or fold. Say an M of about 7 (or something similar).

*With what stack do you stop pushing in the situation below…?

*What do you do instead given your theoretical stack size? How do you handle being reraised or what is your plan for the flop?

I know this is a bit open-ended. These situations come up a lot though, and I’m wondering how good players are approaching them.

Dise $20K
$25 w/ rebuys & add-ons

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t600

(10 handed)

UTG (t12350)
UTG+1 (t9185)
UTG+2 (t4725)
MP1 (t1763)
MP2 (t10950)
MP3 (t5525)
Hero (t????)
Button (t7455)
SB (t15744)
BB (t6565)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t????</font>,

[freeDegas]

First, I don't understand, why your M is 4, if BB is 600 and you have 5600.
But apart from that, I'd open-push here with an M of 4, but not with an M of 7. In that case, I'd try a "normal" blind steal with a raise of maybe 3BB.

If reraised, i'd have to fold. My blind steal attempt did not work, and I have to accept it.

How to handle the flop? If BB didn't give off after my first attempt to steal the blind, he probably will not do so on the flop, too. So, I have to be cautious. I'd bet a checked flop only, if a checkraise is unlikely or if I have probably the best hand.

[Rocco]

I'm not sure I really like a standard 3xBB here with an M of 7. You have the table big stack, who's already put 300 in, left to act. I often see these "big stacks" smooth call (or re-raise) your raise and the question is what you do if you don't hit the flop at all? If he checks you'll be tempted to throw out a continuation bet and that makes you committed. Let's say your M is 7, that means your stack is 6300. A failed raise brings you down to 4500 and a few folded hands later it's down to 3600. Not desireable at all... I'd go all-in or fold here... With an M of 9-10, a 3xBB raise is more likely from my part. On the other hand, if SB is weak-tight, I'd raise 3xBB with lower M's.

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I don't understand, why your M is 4, if BB is 600 and you have 5600.

[/ QUOTE ]

The converter doesn't mention the antes....

300-600/50, 10 handed = 1400 per round

[TightIsRight]

[ QUOTE ]
But apart from that, I'd open-push here with an M of 4, but not with an M of 7. In that case, I'd try a "normal" blind steal with a raise of maybe 3BB.

If reraised, i'd have to fold. My blind steal attempt did not work, and I have to accept it.

How to handle the flop? If BB didn't give off after my first attempt to steal the blind, he probably will not do so on the flop, too. So, I have to be cautious. I'd bet a checked flop only, if a checkraise is unlikely or if I have probably the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with opening for 3x BB when my M is 7 (9800 chips...remember the antes), is as follows:

I'm putting in 1/5 of my chips (just PF) on a blind steal. Against typical players at this level, I find myself getting called by a lot of hands that aren't too far behind. When these hands hit, I’m getting CRed off the flop for a big portion of my stack. (If I CB the flop I am putting in another 1/4 to 1/3 of my stack.)


For example, I open for 1800 in the CO w/ the A7 again, but this time I have 9800 (M=7). The BB calls. There is now 4400 in the pot, and I have 8000 behind. Continuation betting the flop will cost me another 2200-ish. Say the flop comes Jack-high and I’m CR’ed. I (usually) have to dump. I have put in a total of 4000 out of my 9800 stack on this blind steal. (I don't think this is a "worst case scenario;" this has happened to me a lot lately)

I think the advantage of open-pushing in these types of situations is that QJo and KTo type of hands will typically fold. That is, typical players at this level (in my experience) are calling w/ these hands when you open in a steal position for 3x BB. A7 is not killing QJ or KT and I’m happy when they fold in this spot. So, I’m pushing or folding here depending on my reads on the players behind me.

Now, someone please tell me this is stupid. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Thanks.

[nath]

I don't think there's anything wrong with open-pushing with an M of 7 in LP with a marginal hand.

Sure, they might know you're on a steal with a less-than-optimal hand, but they'd still have to call, and it's expensive, so who gives a damn? It definitely disabuses them of the notion that they can reraise you off the hand, and you almost always pick up the pot, unless you run into a monster.

It's one of those cases where your play may look suspicious but it really doesn't matter because your opponents still can't call you.

[elmitchbo]

it's not stupid. i think your exactly right. M=7.5 is where i go into psuedo push bot mode. any hand like the A6 i would push. with a better hand that i felt was most likely to be ahead, i would be more inclined to just raise with the intention of pushing on the flop. but even in that situation i'm going into the thinking that i'm getting all my chips in.

the basic problem is that an M of 7 doesn't give you enough chips to play the hand out with noraml bets on every street. so if you play the hand you're going to play for all of your chips anyway.... might as well put maximum pressure on your opponent up front.