(22) AK vs UTG raiser

[beboppoker]

I play 10+1, so someone strike me down if I'm out of line.

I dont see how folding here is an option. I'm sure the range is much bigger than some have posted here because you're forgetting all the idiots that do things for NO LOGICAL reason.

I think A10+, KJ+, 77+ isn't too unreasonable. I'm sure a few idiots are raising Ax suited to narrow the field...etc.

You gain an edge by picking up pots uncontested, or getting money in with the best hand. I think pushing gives you the best of it.

As for running into KK or AA (newb point of view), but I dont think your losing any money. Cuz the nx time you have AA or KK, someone else will pay you off with AK.

[notmyusername]

I think you lose a ton of value from weaker aces by folding AK here. I would say the vast majority of the 22ers are raising AJ and AQ UTG here, and they will not go gently if they flop an ace. I think the implied pot odds of calling with AK here are similar to those of calling with a middle pocket pair for set value -- if you flop an ace, you will usually get the raiser's stack if they have AQ or AJ. Maybe this is a difference between 1500 starting stacks I play with and party's 800, but I think folding is losing value either way.

[45suited]

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I think the implied pot odds of calling with AK here are similar to those of calling with a middle pocket pair for set value

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Are you calling off 95 chips (1/8th of your stack) pre-flop with a pair of 7s here? I'm not saying that calling is 'wrong' per se, only that I would not do it. If you just have some patience in these games, the easy +EV spots pop up in almost every game.

So, what's your plan if:

1) There is another caller and you miss the flop?

2) You are the only caller, you miss the flop, and the inital raiser bets into you? Position is nice, but don't forget, if he has AJ or AQ as you'd like to hope, he gets first shot at bluffing at the pot.

[Scuba Chuck]

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Hopefully scuba chuck will enlighten us further because I struggle with these too.

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There's no answer, thus nothing to explain.

[notmyusername]

If you miss the flop you can check/fold, same as with the 7s. You only have to double up once in awhile for the call to be +EV. As you flop TPTK 1/3 times, and you put around 90 in preflop, all you have to win is on average 180 when you flop TPTK. If there is another caller, your pot odds increase. I think you can expect to win at least that much that often (even when you factor in the times when you slam into AA, KK or a set).

Also, is your position that much different with 7/8ths of your former stack? Finally, if you won't call with AK here, and you won't call with any pocket pairs, are you only playing AA, KK and QQ before the blinds become significant? What about the majority of tourneys when you don't get any of those hands? Is your late game skill really that much better than the rest of the 22ers that you can camp on completely simple situations presented by monster hole cards until the blinds get to be 1/10th of your stack? I think you have to open up your game a little more than this to get full value from the 22s. At least I do. Maybe I'm not as good at late game as you guys and I have to compensate by playing slightly more hands early on.... Don't know. Interesting discussion, though.

[RobGW]

I agree with you here. Folding AK here is passing up way too much. I've always played it so I've had much experience. Overall i'd say it was worth it. I mean if you always fold here you'll never even know that your passing up +EV opportunites. Especially at the 22's where they wont fold if they have any Ax. Most of them will pay off with PP also. They just play too donkishly for me to fold here.

[45suited]

Now, keeping in mind that I'm not saying that calling is 'wrong', only that I would not call:

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Also, is your position that much different with 7/8ths of your former stack?

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Yes, it is. Significantly. After taking the blinds (assuming they don't increase before we take them) we will be down to just over t600. And when I double up later (as I will need to at some point), it won't be a 95 chip difference, it will be a 190 chip difference.

Also, your FE could be hurt significantly, which could be the difference between stealing blinds and busting out.

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Finally, if you won't call with AK here, and you won't call with any pocket pairs, are you only playing AA, KK and QQ before the blinds become significant?

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Come on now. I play plenty of hands early, just not vs 3XBB UTG raises (amounting to 1/8th of my stack) from unknown players. Gap Concept.