Sort of Theory Post

[AdamBragar]

5/10 NL 10 handed

1 limper (1kish stack), I raise to 40 with A10 off, he calls. 2 to the flop.

Pot: 95ish
Flop: A83 rainbow

He bets 100, I make it 300

I played this hand at 5/10 NL and my friend asked me why I raised the flop here and his follow up was shouldn't I raise the flop with any 2? Do most people raise this flop with any 2 cards? What range of hands would most people raise this flop? Would anyone fold/call this flop?

The real theory question I'm considering right now is if stacks are deep enough and you're the preflop raiser and are bet into, should you raise barring a read?

[Requin]

Raising this flop with AT is bad, just call. You're folding out every hand you beat and getting yourself into trouble when he has you beat.

[gomberg]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising this flop with AT is bad, just call. You're folding out every hand you beat and getting yourself into trouble when he has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good time to raise any two [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Note - don't have time to answer in depth right now - maybe later...

[thedustbustr]

gomberg,
that is the case every time you raise any two.

[ezratei]

I would either raise or fold the flop, I think that calling is the worst option.

If you just call, then he bets 300 on the turn, what are you going to do? Fold? If so then you should just fold the flop. If you are going to call it's going to end up costing you more than if you had raised the flop.

Depending on the opponent folding might be best, but if you want to play the hand you should raise because ...

If you are ahead, he might fold (not always though) but you stop him from drawing for free. If he has A2 and he will only put more money in the pot if a 2 comes on the turn, raising is clearly correct. If you are ahead and just call, he might bet the turn, which puts you in a tough spot.

If you are behind and he calls with AK, he will most likely check the turn ... which give you 2 cards for 300 as opposed to having to call 300 on the turn (and still not knowing what is going on). This sort of thing happens a lot ... sometimes the best way to control the pot size is to raise the flop. Also if you raise he may fold the best hand.

I wouldn't raise with any 2 because the times when he calls (which will probably be pretty often) will cost too much and you won't have the outs to make it less expensive.

However, if you do raise with any 2 and he folds you must throw your cards down and yell "Pachenga!!!"

[neff]

Ok, seeing as I'm the one responsble for creating this fascinating debate I must chime in.

I think the situation I'm most curious about is, raising with any two or not. I'm not sure I see a huge difference with raising A10 and raising any two when bet into like this. Granted I don't play 5/10 and I'm a huge attiyeh-esque donkey, but what are the chances this goes to showdown? If you raise here, if called or raised (especially raised), aren't you resigned to the fact that you are beat. How comfortable are you putting any more money into the pot past the flop? Wouldn't the same thing apply with any 2. If he checks the turn, are you willing to push push here with just A10?

Ezra, you say you wouldn't raise any two here because when he calls, it will cost too much and you won't have the outs. But aren't you done with the hand anyway when he does call, just as the case if you had any two? If you are gonna raise with A10 here post flop when you are the pfr, why wouldn't you do it with a hand like KQ or JJ. I understand showdown value, but like I said, does this hand really go to showdown often?

I do agree with yelling after raising with any 2 and having him fold, but I beleive it calls for the Mattias level "YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!"

[g-p]

youre turning top pair into seven deuce!

[AdamBragar]

I dislike calling cause if you call here, I think you're going to get run over most of the time. Would you call here with AK? How do you proceed if he bets the turn? Are you hoping this hand gets checked down after the flop?

When I'm raising with A10 here, I don't necessarily expect I'm ahead. The hand range I'd likely put someone on would be:

Ax
AK, AQ, AJ, A10
pocket pair that doesn't create a set
set
2 pair

I think causes AQ and worse to fold. I'd expect a reraise from a set and 2 pair. AK might just call. Obviously if someone reraises, I'm folding.

If I figure any hand worse than A10 will fold, the question becomes, why wouldn't I raise with any 2 here?

One reason I orignally thought of is what Ezra pointed out, that with A10 I have outs, while with 27 I have none. But, I think a lot of the time I'm getting reraised here by 2 pair and I'm drawing dead to a set, the only hands I have outs against are hands I'm really looking to fold this flop (although, I doubt Ak folds this flop cause people usually play AK very stubbornly). I'd love to get more comments whether raising any 2 is valuable when bet into.

[gomberg]

Well - it's profitable to raise any two here but exploitable...

[BobboFitos]

I like calling, but I think those who say raise with any 2 are forgetting that this is a raised pot (hero is PFR) and I do NOT think a raise w/ ATC to 300 or whatever is a good play.