The Value of Suited Aces in NL Hold 'Em

[elmitchbo]

EDIT: this was for 12AX7. he asked about source info.

poker room ev charts. they're frequently referenced around here.

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...php?order=card

http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value

[bigscore]

You can't have suited aces.
They are: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
duh

[tshak]

I'm fairly certain that the Poker Room stats are for LHE, not NLHE. You really can not correlate the two.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
i actually did blow the first one. that was supposed to be A9s vs. 77. as for the rest, go to the chart and look.
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value

i'll give you a head start on my examples:

hand/ev vs. hand /ev
A9s/.18 vs. 99/.38
A9s/.18 vs. 77/.16
A4s/.06 vs. 44/-.03
ATs/.33 vs. QJs/.23
A5s/.08 vs. 66/.07
ATs/.33 vs. AQ/.31
A4s/.06 vs. 87s/-.02

i'm not confused, just made one typo. with that one correction, and the addition of the 77 example, you can see that the suited aces do have more EV preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I do not understand your underlying premise.

See Gocee Poker for a correct EV analysis.

I see now that a made I very slight miscalculation on the AQo vs the ATs but it is so slight that the hand is a true coinflip.

Jimbo

[12AX7]

Isn't it pretty clear the OP means Ace-Little suited?

[12AX7]

Yes, but do these charts not represent actual play?

That means that the human component is involved here. And further the human component of all players at that site.

Why's that significant?

Well, we all know 72o is the worst hand. But your chart shows 32o as the worst EV.

Point is, some hands that have a mathematically lower EV may have a "practical" EV that's better because people play they better. 72o is a perfect example. Since it's commonly know to be the worst hand, folks don't misplay it too often.

All of which points up an interesting idea. I'll steal a phrase from the Blackjack folks, and further mis-use it. LOL!


"Playing Efficiency" (of a hand). How easy is it to tell what to do with it after the flop, is how I'll use the term in this context.

AT seems to be a hand with poor playing efficiency by this definition. You hit the A, and your kicker is poor. Hit your T and it's vulnerable to lots of overcards. So no matter what happens, (short of hitting two pair or better) you have a dilemma. One that's tough to resolve, even if you are a decent hand reader.

So it seems one study that would be of value, especially for multi-tablers, is "Which hands have clear lines of play post flop, and what are those lines of play".

It seems clear to me, especially after having tried playing as many as 8 tables at a time (on a single laptop screen no less) that choosing hands that have easy "yes/no" decision points could be a useful concept.

I for one would very much like to develop a mechanical strategy that could simply be replicated with as much "playing efficiency" as possible to as many tables as I can stand to grind. I.e. to become a human slot machine.

Ideally they strategy would minimize drawdowns as well.

Not sure how to approach building such a strategy though.

Much like the poster quoted in the Forward to this month's magazine, I don't want to play cards per se. I want to make money. The last thing I want to do is "play cards".

Therefore, playing efficiency improvements and drawdown reduction are of clear interest. We want a methodology that that reduces mistakes, reduceds drawdown, and ensures profit.

As a side thought, that seems to be what things like Kill Phil and DS's tournament strategy for beginners are about right? So now we need the same for ring games and other work a day grinders (or wannbes like me). It would also seem the EM's Short Stack NL strategy has a similar idea at it's heart.

[elmitchbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually did blow the first one. that was supposed to be A9s vs. 77. as for the rest, go to the chart and look.
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value

i'll give you a head start on my examples:

hand/ev vs. hand /ev
A9s/.18 vs. 99/.38
A9s/.18 vs. 77/.16
A4s/.06 vs. 44/-.03
ATs/.33 vs. QJs/.23
A5s/.08 vs. 66/.07
ATs/.33 vs. AQ/.31
A4s/.06 vs. 87s/-.02

i'm not confused, just made one typo. with that one correction, and the addition of the 77 example, you can see that the suited aces do have more EV preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I do not understand your underlying premise.

See Gocee Poker for a correct EV analysis.

I see now that a made I very slight miscalculation on the AQo vs the ATs but it is so slight that the hand is a true coinflip.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm afraid i must disagree again. (i'm not trying to beat a dead horse but..)

the EV numbers at poker room are more accurate/valuable than the gocee link you gave.

first of all, they aren't measuring the same type of EV as far as i can tell. poker room measures EV as average return in BB's recorded from real poker hands.

all i find at gocee is a mathmatical measure of pot equity and winning percentage against a random hand heads up. pot equity and winning percentage aren't the same as true EV.

pokerroom shows actual return on your money across all levels and all positions. that's valuable info.

my underlying premise is simply that suited aces are good/playable hands. they have more EV than other speculative hands that people frequently play like suited connectors. if you're limping into pots with suited connectors you should also be playing some suited aces.

as a side note... i was playing around with the simulator plugging in suited aces in different table positions. they were far more profitable in late position, which is what you would expect. but several hands actually showed negative EV in MP, but positive EV in early position. i'll keep working on it.

[ratso]

How do you get suited aces?

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i actually did blow the first one. that was supposed to be A9s vs. 77. as for the rest, go to the chart and look.
http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evsta...hp?order=value

i'll give you a head start on my examples:

hand/ev vs. hand /ev
A9s/.18 vs. 99/.38
A9s/.18 vs. 77/.16
A4s/.06 vs. 44/-.03
ATs/.33 vs. QJs/.23
A5s/.08 vs. 66/.07
ATs/.33 vs. AQ/.31
A4s/.06 vs. 87s/-.02

i'm not confused, just made one typo. with that one correction, and the addition of the 77 example, you can see that the suited aces do have more EV preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I do not understand your underlying premise.

See Gocee Poker for a correct EV analysis.

I see now that a made I very slight miscalculation on the AQo vs the ATs but it is so slight that the hand is a true coinflip.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm afraid i must disagree again. (i'm not trying to beat a dead horse but..)

the EV numbers at poker room are more accurate/valuable than the gocee link you gave.

first of all, they aren't measuring the same type of EV as far as i can tell. poker room measures EV as average return in BB's recorded from real poker hands.

all i find at gocee is a mathmatical measure of pot equity and winning percentage against a random hand heads up. pot equity and winning percentage aren't the same as true EV.

pokerroom shows actual return on your money across all levels and all positions. that's valuable info.

my underlying premise is simply that suited aces are good/playable hands. they have more EV than other speculative hands that people frequently play like suited connectors. if you're limping into pots with suited connectors you should also be playing some suited aces.

as a side note... i was playing around with the simulator plugging in suited aces in different table positions. they were far more profitable in late position, which is what you would expect. but several hands actually showed negative EV in MP, but positive EV in early position. i'll keep working on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my last effort to show you your error. You wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
a brief quiz from the EV charts...which hand has more EV preflop ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your PokerRoom stats show hands going to the river. No more clues, no more advice and heh, good luck with your theory.

Jimbo

[bennyblanco]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you get suited aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

slip an extra card in the deck [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]