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#31
10-29-2007, 02:44 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Who is suing Absolute Poker? Who can sue? Who can be prosecuted? Who is going to be prosecuted? The answer to all those questions is no one. [/ QUOTE ] Do you think this would be true in ACland? [/ QUOTE ] Um, I think you missed something. My position is that AP is operating in ACland. [/ QUOTE ] That's what I'm trying to argue against. It would much easier to sue AP (or individuals within it) in ACland, without state borders and other restrictions. This indicates to me that AP is not operating in an exact ACland, and/or that we can't use every particular of this example. [/ QUOTE ] It would be much easier to sue AP if online poker were regulated instead there being feeble attempts to prohibit it. It would be no easier in ACland, and probably harder, because businessmen will take all kinds of shortcuts if all they have is a financial downside. Add risk of jail or even limited mobility and you have another layer of disincentives. 
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#32
10-29-2007, 03:04 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever semantic argument you want to make prohibition is government intervention in a market, and that government intervention distorts the market. ACland, as proposed, would be absent that intervention and thus your proposal that the online gambling industry mimics a free market is false. [/ QUOTE ] You are missing the forest for the trees. The market may not be totally free, but as there are a half dozen big choices for US players and over a dozen for everyone else, there are plenty of options available. It's certainly enough to judge the effectiveness of a boycott and/or the overall hit that a site found guilty of rigging will take. That hit appears to be 0% when the entire community knows about it but there is no admission of guilt, 5% in week 1 after that admission, and ~3% in week 2. In other words, the market very, very clearly did not react to the perceived honesty of AP or lack thereof.
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#33
10-29-2007, 03:07 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] One word (er, acronym), UIEGA, shows how far off your initial premises are. Online poker in the US is not "unregulated" it is in fact heavily regulated for it is illegal to operate an online poker room in the US- UIEGA is regulation, and extremely harsh and invasive regulation at that. Online poker in the US is an example of black market economics and black markets are not the same thing as free markets. [/ QUOTE ] I've seen this movie before. Prohibition does not equal regulation. [/ QUOTE ] True, which is why the War on Drugs is unconstitutional.
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#34
10-29-2007, 08:31 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
That's lame.
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#35
10-29-2007, 09:15 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
You are missing the forest for the trees. The market may not be totally free, but as there are a half dozen big choices for US players and over a dozen for everyone else, there are plenty of options available. [/ QUOTE ] There isn't some magical number that's "enough", two or three options may suffice in some markets while a dozen may not be enough in others. Regulations (and prohibition) alter the landscape making it harder for consumers to make informed decisions. Here's one example To play online poker in the US you have to go through a client that is not listed on a major stock exchange and is located in a country that doesn't have certain treaty obligations with the US. Normally the choice of a location like that would be a big ole warning sign to many people. Why play at absolute when PartyPoker is listed on the London stock exchange and must abide by their rules? [ QUOTE ] That hit appears to be 0% when the entire community knows about it but there is no admission of guilt, 5% in week 1 after that admission, and ~3% in week 2. In other words, the market very, very clearly did not react to the perceived honesty of AP or lack thereof. [/ QUOTE ] Has being caught cheating not cost Absolute money? Hiring auditors, paying lawyers to craft statements, paying players back, loss of traffic, flying 2+2ers to CR (I stopped following a few days ago, is this going to happen?).
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#36
10-29-2007, 09:43 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
To play online poker in the US you have to go through a client that is not listed on a major stock exchange and is located in a country that doesn't have certain treaty obligations with the US. Normally the choice of a location like that would be a big ole warning sign to many people. Why play at absolute when PartyPoker is listed on the London stock exchange and must abide by their rules? [/ QUOTE ] This would be way more relevant were it not for the fact that since the overall drop a week later stands at 3%, the European population at AP didn't drop by any appreciable amount, either. [ QUOTE ] Has being caught cheating not cost Absolute money? Hiring auditors, paying lawyers to craft statements, paying players back, loss of traffic, flying 2+2ers to CR (I stopped following a few days ago, is this going to happen?). [/ QUOTE ] Wow. Being caught cheating cost AP money because they have to pay people back? *What*? As to the rest...I happen to know the approximate numbers involved. The rest of this list likely does not even add up to the amount of the refunds. All things considered, it's less than a 100% penalty, and, of course, nobody's going to jail - which remains true in AC-land, obv. What an awesome deterrent.
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#37
10-29-2007, 10:42 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
This would be way more relevant were it not for the fact that since the overall drop a week later stands at 3%, the European population at AP didn't drop by any appreciable amount, either. [/ QUOTE ] What difference does it make? They were already playing there. For whatever reasons, they already chose that product to the other ones despite the fact that the other ones were options. You should expect them to value the difference between using AP vs. the next site to roughly the same degree Americans value the difference. Why would they leave at a higher rate? They're already choosing to play there. In short, Europeans would be less likely to play at AP in the first place if there wasn't something they really liked about it (relative to Americans who are more likely to be playing there because they consider it just the best of their few options). [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Has being caught cheating not cost Absolute money? Hiring auditors, paying lawyers to craft statements, paying players back, loss of traffic, flying 2+2ers to CR (I stopped following a few days ago, is this going to happen?). [/ QUOTE ] Wow. Being caught cheating cost AP money because they have to pay people back? *What*? [/ QUOTE ] How does "hiring auditors," "paying lawyers," "loss of traffic," and "flying 2+2ers to CR" refer to paying people back?? Those things clearly seem like additional expenses to me.
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#38
10-29-2007, 11:00 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This would be way more relevant were it not for the fact that since the overall drop a week later stands at 3%, the European population at AP didn't drop by any appreciable amount, either. [/ QUOTE ] What difference does it make? They were already playing there. [/ QUOTE ] Right, and they kept on playing through the scandal despite having plenty of other options, some of them regulated and traded on the London Stock Exchange. Which brings me back to my original point: the market does not care about the scandal. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Has being caught cheating not cost Absolute money? Hiring auditors, paying lawyers to craft statements, paying players back, loss of traffic, flying 2+2ers to CR (I stopped following a few days ago, is this going to happen?). [/ QUOTE ] Wow. Being caught cheating cost AP money because they have to pay people back? *What*? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How does "hiring auditors," "paying lawyers," "loss of traffic," and "flying 2+2ers to CR" refer to paying people back?? Those things clearly seem like additional expenses to me. [/ QUOTE ] Bolded the relevant parts for you
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#39
10-29-2007, 11:05 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
Which brings me back to my original point: the market does not care about the scandal. [/ QUOTE ] I have no idea what the scandal is about, but could anyone give me an estimate of how many bb/100 it has cost the average player? It would have to be a pretty huge scandal for it to have an actual effect on the player base.
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#40
10-29-2007, 11:14 PM
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Re: A/C in Action: The AP Case
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How does "hiring auditors," "paying lawyers," "loss of traffic," and "flying 2+2ers to CR" refer to paying people back?? Those things clearly seem like additional expenses to me. [/ QUOTE ] Bolded the relevant parts for you [/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I don't get it. How does these actions comprise "paying people back"?
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