Can you NL players embarrass the MTT players? (X-post)

[Van God]

I think AK of spades is likely here. He was likely raising before the flop with a strong hand since the Armenian guy was already in the pot and he likely would have noticed how he was playing. He may have hoped to get a check-raise in on the flop, but with it getting checked around and somewhat of a scare card coming on the turn he was probably content to just call with the nut draw (just like sklansky says to do when you have a draw to the nuts in a nlhe tournament). If he accidentally raised, he probably wasn't too upset about it since he had such a strong hand and a draw to the nuts. If this is the case I like calling the raise to see if a spade, ace, or king comes on the river. If one does you can c/f. If not I like betting out 1/2-2/3 of the pot.

[Daut44]

justin's "key" was that there are 2 possibilities going on here:

1. hes angle shooting
2. hes not angle shooting

if hes angle shooting this is a clear fold.
if hes not angle shooting, call and check fold may be correct but there is nothing wrong with folding.

looking at both of these possibilities together it becomes clear that folding is the correct play.

[j4lvlie]

yes

[ArmenH]

Not all Armenians are wealthy and like to gamble okay. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].
Since we know he is not capable of an angle shoot and that he is straightforward we know he truly did intend on just calling the turn. If he had QJ he checks his option in the BB. If he has top two or set he bets flop. Since he was just attempting to call we have to assume we're ahead on the turn. He could have easily turned a huge combo draw with a pair. I would call the raise and play river according to whether or not the draws brick and his bet size and reaction to the river card. I am not folding this turn bet. I think the key to this hand is how the texture of the board changed on the turn and how he wanted to just call your bet.

[luegofuego]

get on with the results, this thread is pissing me off

[Daddy Warbucks]

Results are in the other thread.

[Triumph36]

[ QUOTE ]
Results are in the other thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

you could at least post them here.

he led riv for 5k, guy shoved, he mucked face up

[Daddy Warbucks]

I wasn't sure if it was cool to post results yet.

[LarsVegas]

The flop plan is easily the most interesting part of this hand.

[LarsVegas]

I don't think you can be too sure. He's probably the guy more likely to 3-bet AA/KK and just call AK on the flop, others would be vice versa. And you are stuck out of position and can never be too sure, right?

By just check-calling the flop, the pot is kept smaller, and you could instead lead with a bet on a turn card like this (alternatively checkcall again and lead the river).

Given your description of preflop happenings, you have flopped a very difficult hand. You are of course a favourite over a AA/KK/AK range (though not by much), and your preflop reed seems to be slightly more weighted towards AA/KK. I just don't see why you would want to build a big pot out of position in this spot.

I have rarely been a fan of putting in chips in pots "to see where I am at" (maybe not trusting my reading ability enough (?), however), although I realize that this could probably be at it's most effective against guys like this.

But there must surely be better ways?

Generally speaking, once the last 10-15k of effective stacks goes into this pot, you are likely to be a huge underdog against the range, it's likely to be much more even chances all things put together with the first 10-12k going in, so you'd want to avoid a situation where you'd be put to a *tough* decision for those last 15k ish (I don't for instance, think check-calling 1.3k, 3k, then lead-betting 5k on the river and folding to a shove is *that* "hard").

lars