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#32
01-02-2006, 09:52 PM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
If God didn't create the universe, then its meaningless to talk about the universe WITH god. [/ QUOTE ] If God didn't create the universe it's meaningless to talk about anything. [ QUOTE ] The statement "evolution makes god unessecary" says noting about his actual existance, it only makes option B - that is there is no god - just as valid as option A. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't because Option B destroys the possibility of validity. [ QUOTE ] chance is used in this sense to describe what effects the environment had. That is based upon a law that says every action has a reaction, one thing leads to another. [/ QUOTE ] I haven't got a clue what this means. 
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#33
01-02-2006, 09:56 PM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If he wants to decree that some particles will decay randomly with probability p in such a way that there is no way of knowing when it will decay then he can, cant he? [/ QUOTE ] I think so. I've posted this before but the real issue is God's sovereignty. He can do anything that isn't inconsistent with His nature, so to the extent that some element of chance doesn't encroach on His sovereignty it isn't theoretically objectionable. Whether He does or not is unknown. [/ QUOTE ] Why cant god give up some sovereignty if he want to? chez
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#34
01-02-2006, 10:13 PM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
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Why cant god give up some sovereignty if he want to? [/ QUOTE ] This is a theoretical question about which I cannot be dogmatic. There is no indication in the Bible that God would ever do so and much that indicates He won't - such as verses that say He controls whatever comes to pass as well as prophecies He guarantees will happen but which He couldn't guarantee if He gave up sovereignty. How could He be sure He would defeat Satan in the end if He stopped being God? And that's the theoretical problem - if God is defined as absolute, if He gives up sovereignty He's no longer absolute and thus no longer God. In one previous post I mentioned the possibility, from a theoretical standpoint only, that He could allow for an event to occur which He doesn't absolutely control so long as He controls the effect of the event. For instance, He may not care if you and I flip a quarter and take no action concerning the result. But if we are both kings of countries and agree the coin flip will determine whether we go to war then He would probably either control the outcome of the flip or override our decision if He wanted to, so that whether it was war or peace, God would be overseeing the result.
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#35
01-02-2006, 10:38 PM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why cant god give up some sovereignty if he want to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a theoretical question about which I cannot be dogmatic. There is no indication in the Bible that God would ever do so and much that indicates He won't - such as verses that say He controls whatever comes to pass as well as prophecies He guarantees will happen but which He couldn't guarantee if He gave up sovereignty. How could He be sure He would defeat Satan in the end if He stopped being God? And that's the theoretical problem - if God is defined as absolute, if He gives up sovereignty He's no longer absolute and thus no longer God. [/ QUOTE ] ok but thats a reason why you believe he wouldn't want to give up sovereignty. It still means he could give it up if he wanted to. Why cant he suspend sovereignty for a period of time or over some set of events knowing that on his return he can defeat satan? chez
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#37
01-03-2006, 12:11 AM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
ok but thats a reason why you believe he wouldn't want to give up sovereignty. It still means he could give it up if he wanted to. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't just an opinion. It involves the difficulty of how He could guarantee anything since He wouldn't be God any longer. But to me this question is little more than asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. He isn't going to give up any sovereignty that would make any creature more sovereign than Him, which really means He isn't giving up sovereignty. He won't abdicate.
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#38
01-03-2006, 12:21 AM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why cant god give up some sovereignty if he want to? [/ QUOTE ] This is a theoretical question about which I cannot be dogmatic. There is no indication in the Bible that God would ever do so and much that indicates He won't - such as verses that say He controls whatever comes to pass as well as prophecies He guarantees will happen but which He couldn't guarantee if He gave up sovereignty. How could He be sure He would defeat Satan in the end if He stopped being God? And that's the theoretical problem - if God is defined as absolute, if He gives up sovereignty He's no longer absolute and thus no longer God. In one previous post I mentioned the possibility, from a theoretical standpoint only, that He could allow for an event to occur which He doesn't absolutely control so long as He controls the effect of the event. For instance, He may not care if you and I flip a quarter and take no action concerning the result. But if we are both kings of countries and agree the coin flip will determine whether we go to war then He would probably either control the outcome of the flip or override our decision if He wanted to, so that whether it was war or peace, God would be overseeing the result. [/ QUOTE ] I hope God will read this by next Friday.
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#39
01-03-2006, 12:21 AM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ok but thats a reason why you believe he wouldn't want to give up sovereignty. It still means he could give it up if he wanted to. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't just an opinion. It involves the difficulty of how He could guarantee anything since He wouldn't be God any longer. But to me this question is little more than asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. He isn't going to give up any sovereignty that would make any creature more sovereign than Him, which really means He isn't giving up sovereignty. He won't abdicate. [/ QUOTE ] I cant see your analogy with angles on pins. This goes to the heart of your whole argument about god as I understand it. meaning -> omnipotent god -> things dont happen by chance This seems to be wrong because an omnipotent god can allow many things to happen by chance. In particular god could allow evolution by chance knowing full well that evolution (a process designed by an omnipotent being) plus the occasional intervention would eventually result in creatures capable of recognising his existence. None of that threatens gods existence as god, how could it? chez
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#40
01-03-2006, 02:59 AM
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Re: What prevents evolution?
[ QUOTE ]
I cant see your analogy with angles on pins. This goes to the heart of your whole argument about god as I understand it. [/ QUOTE ] What I mean is I don't believe He does give up any of His sovereignty so the question is moot - pointless, like the question about angels. It's also unanswerable and moot for that reason as well. It's a hypothetical question to which we can't know the answer so it makes little difference what we say about it. [ QUOTE ] This seems to be wrong because an omnipotent god can allow many things to happen by chance. In particular god could allow evolution by chance knowing full well that evolution (a process designed by an omnipotent being) plus the occasional intervention would eventually result in creatures capable of recognising his existence [/ QUOTE ] I've already said there's a sense in which I don't disagree with this. But the chance element in evolution, if it did exist, would ultimately be under the control of God and would therefore affect only non-essential things (and God would define what is and isn't essential). So He might allow chance to decide whether a particular species survives if it doesn't matter to His overall plan, but if that species is integral to His plan He would guarantee its survival. No different than the coin flip example I gave. The bottom line is God is in control and nothing happens outside His will.
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