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#71
09-14-2007, 04:44 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively [/ QUOTE ] So you would say that Hitler just liked different "tastes" than you? And human rights are not intrinsic or do not even exist objectively? 
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#72
09-14-2007, 04:52 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Aren't you forgetting Camp C, I care and I don't find meat-eating wrong? Or I don't find animal cruelty to be wrong? [/ QUOTE ] I was working with the assumption that there is no objective "right" or "wrong". Without right and wrong it comes down to the matter of caring. Not everyone will agree with the assumption, I just find it the best approach. I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively, so by necessity I suppose I would fall into your "camp C". [/ QUOTE ] Ok, that makes sense. I just don't think I would say "I don't care"="I think its fine." I think abortion is fine but I wouldn't say I don't care about it. I care about animals, I just still think its ok to eat them. Less ok to torture them.
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#73
09-14-2007, 04:57 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively [/ QUOTE ] So you would say that Hitler just liked different "tastes" than you? And human rights are not intrinsic or do not even exist objectively? [/ QUOTE ] Demonstrate how they exist objectively. Without people to agree to them, to what extent do they exist? How do you KNOW they exist? To your earlier point, I disagree that many people were ok with genocide. They were ok with what Hitler was doing because they were ignorant (wilfully or otherwise) of how their actions conflicted with their own morality. For instance, if I find genocide wrong, but I do not consider Jews to be people, then I might condone these actions. The problem is, I'm wrong, Jews really ARE people. My condoning these actions isn't because I don't think genocide is wrong, its because I didn't understand the implications, or had bad information. There are exceptions, and we call them sociopaths. These are people who really do not share the same basic moral tenets that all the rest of us humans share. But the majority of Germans during WWII were not sociopaths. They did not condone genocide. They were either cowards or they didn't think it was genocide.
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#74
09-14-2007, 08:34 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Aren't you forgetting Camp C, I care and I don't find meat-eating wrong? Or I don't find animal cruelty to be wrong? [/ QUOTE ] I was working with the assumption that there is no objective "right" or "wrong". Without right and wrong it comes down to the matter of caring. Not everyone will agree with the assumption, I just find it the best approach. I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively, so by necessity I suppose I would fall into your "camp C". [/ QUOTE ] Ok, that makes sense. I just don't think I would say "I don't care"="I think its fine." I think abortion is fine but I wouldn't say I don't care about it. I care about animals, I just still think its ok to eat them. Less ok to torture them. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe "care" was a bad choice of word. But I did include "I care, but not enough to think things should be changed." I'm not saying those who don't think things should be changed don't care about animals at all, but that they don't care a great deal about, say, animals having bad experiencing in factory farms for example.
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#75
09-14-2007, 08:47 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I've yet to hear a decent argument explaining how something can be called "wrong" objectively [/ QUOTE ] So you would say that Hitler just liked different "tastes" than you? And human rights are not intrinsic or do not even exist objectively? [/ QUOTE ] I'm saying debating moral relativism\objectivism is fruitless, because there are no good objectivist arguments (to my knowledge).
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#76
09-14-2007, 11:33 AM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, I find it strange that I see so much more hostility toward vegetarians/vegans by meat-eaters than the other way around. Some of RoundGuy's posts in this thread are an example of that. [/ QUOTE ] Please allow me to take issue with this (I'm sure you're shocked). I think I made it clear, in one of my first posts, that from my perspective this is simply not true. I absolutely respect a vegen's right to their beliefs. But they (in most cases) do not respect mine. That's when the vitriol starts. I get tired of being considered sub-human, unethical, immoral, etc. by vegans because I eat meat. [ QUOTE ] it is conceivable that they might someday become a majority and meat will become stigmatized or even outlawed. [/ QUOTE ] I have no doubt that this is the pipe dream of every vegan on the planet. But sorry, it is not even conceivable.
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#77
09-14-2007, 01:09 PM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] On a side note, I find it strange that I see so much more hostility toward vegetarians/vegans by meat-eaters than the other way around. Some of RoundGuy's posts in this thread are an example of that. [/ QUOTE ] Please allow me to take issue with this (I'm sure you're shocked). I think I made it clear, in one of my first posts, that from my perspective this is simply not true. I absolutely respect a vegen's right to their beliefs. But they (in most cases) do not respect mine. That's when the vitriol starts. I get tired of being considered sub-human, unethical, immoral, etc. by vegans because I eat meat. [/ QUOTE ] You accused lucksack of this, when he made no such claims. Then when he denied it, you said you didn't believe him. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] it is conceivable that they might someday become a majority and meat will become stigmatized or even outlawed. [/ QUOTE ] I have no doubt that this is the pipe dream of every vegan on the planet. But sorry, it is not even conceivable. [/ QUOTE ] Actually my "pipe dream" is that in vitro meat will replace the current meat industry. And this is very conceivable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat
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#78
09-14-2007, 01:30 PM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
You accused lucksack of this, when he made no such claims. Then when he denied it, you said you didn't believe him. [/ QUOTE ] Ah. So when he's talking about ethics, morals, good / bad, right / wrong, animal abuse, animal suffering etc., he's not referring to meat eaters like me. Got it. My bad. [ QUOTE ] Actually my "pipe dream" is that in vitro meat will replace the current meat industry. And this is very conceivable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat [/ QUOTE ] As long as I can still get the equivalant of an 1-1/2" thick Black Angus ribeye steak, I've got no problem with this at all.
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#79
09-14-2007, 01:33 PM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
Then whats wrong with us also believing we are the most important species?
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#80
09-14-2007, 01:42 PM
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Re: Biggest lie in the history of mankind
[ QUOTE ]
So you would say that Hitler just liked different "tastes" than you? And human rights are not intrinsic or do not even exist objectively? [/ QUOTE ] I would, and I don't think there's any shame in admitting that. I'd still fight hitler, and feel good about doing it. It makes me cry when I see the anne frank story. It makes me angry when I read about all the political murders of communists, etc. in the 30s. Admitting that there is no actual morality to justify my feelings and attitudes doesn't take away one bit from the fact that they exist.
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