WOW, PETA people really are crazy!

[Sephus]

[ QUOTE ]
Right, I'm being rather nitty myself. My point is that "play" has been shown to aide an animal in it's survival. I think I read somewhere that the only animal that does not engage in play is a reptile. They are just born ready for the world. All other animals play in order to hone the skills needed for survival.

So the cat gets"use" from the act of batting a mouse back and forth to death, even if it doesn't eat it. My big thing is "use". If you get use out of killing an animal, I can't begrudge that. Even if I don't agree with it, or I wouldn't do it (such as hunting).

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but (i suppose) the cat is "aware" that it's having fun but unaware of any other "use."

[Peter666]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm pretty sure cats do sometimes torture and kill "for fun." so maybe the people are torturing the cats righteously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. One of the cruelest things I ever saw in my life was a pack of hyenas ripping apart a family of baby boars from its mother. I wanted to torture those beasts to death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do people seriously ascribe animals with a moral and ethical awareness that they don't have to justify their own actions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think many people lack moral and ethical awareness and become animals.

[foal]

We can basically eat what we want. We can easily get by not eating any meat. Eating meat instead of other protein sources is basically a choice made for the sake of pleasure. "Fun" would not be the right word, but the principle is close to being the same. So why is it worse to hunt for fun than to support torturous living conditions for the pleasure of eating meat?

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
We can basically eat what we want. We can easily get by not eating any meat. Eating meat instead of other protein sources is basically a choice made for the sake of pleasure. "Fun" would not be the right word, but the principle is close to being the same. So why is it worse to hunt for fun than to support torturous living conditions for the pleasure of eating meat?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a good question and one that I'm probably conflicted with. I do think "fun" without use, is different than "pleasure" with use. Is it different enough to support my position? I don't know.

I'd also like to know whether eating meat at all is conflicting with my feelings. I don't think I'd ever be the one to cattle prod the cow I get my steak from. So if I can't pull the trigger, do I deserve to eat meat just because someone else does the dirty work (dirty work that I'm not willing to do myself)?

I imagine there are a lot of people like me, who wouldn't be willing to actually kill the animal they were about to eat.

Maybe I'll become a vegetarian because of this thread. All I know is that people who are inhumane to animals sicken me. To the point where I'd like to inflict upon them what they inflict upon the animals they mistreat. Maybe this really is important enough for me to get my morals, ethics, and logical consistency straight. I know it's conflicted now.

[FortunaMaximus]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine there are a lot of people like me, who wouldn't be willing to actually kill the animal they were about to eat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in this era, that stuff is pretty much subcontracted and it's much easier for the consumer to just load up a cart and go.

That wasn't always the case, and the margins in which this safety net would be removed are always narrower than they seem. I don't think it means you should proactively practice selective elimination for this particular reason or for moral motivations alone.

Even though it is part of the basic instincts of primal man to hunt, maim, kill and feed on the weaker, maybe humanity has begun to evolve past that a little bit. It's not always easy to tell considering the sheer volume of warfare and killing that still goes on. Along with baseless, senseless cruelty for entertainment purposes.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'll become a vegetarian because of this thread. All I know is that people who are inhumane to animals sicken me. To the point where I'd like to inflict upon them what they inflict upon the animals they mistreat. Maybe this really is important enough for me to get my morals, ethics, and logical consistency straight. I know it's conflicted now.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't blame you. I feel much the same way actually. I wouldn't put off meat because of such considerations if I were you, though. To be able to understand and share in the moral culpability of protecting the defenseless and relatively innocent is admirable and shows a lot of maturity, truly.

Perhaps consider that you have finally determined, or started to realize the moral price you pay every time you pick up a steak and toss it in the cart without an afterthought.

The harder lesson is to realize that the process in which justice is meted out with regards to people who do evil things... (Evil is subjective, but I think there's a common morality that exists with its own set of variant criteria)

It is that it cannot be a valuation and judgment that you should carry out individually in today's society, at least not as a passive civilian. Sure, the system's flawed, it sucks, and most days I'd probably be a step ahead of you in delivering the same judgments you seem to want to express on the inherently evil.

And that's fine as a thought experiment, as it gives you a deeper understanding of why such judgments must be collective rather than individual. Having the strength to stop yourself from moving from thoughts to actions is something that would carry far more respect, especially self-respect.

But consider this if you return to your original assertions, Lestat:

If you anoint yourself as the ultimate judge in the eradication of evil, your odyssey would be infinite and solitary. And in time you'd have to realize you have to kill every sentient being on this planet, at least the ones that are capable of complex expression of their own sentience.

What use would be existence then if you are the only individual aware of such calculations and you take away others' capability to do so?

It's too dangerous. Best to hunt well within and watch what goes on without. Purity without flaw is a shallow beauty in its own realm. It's not necessary.

GL with the process. You'll learn to draw comfort from it in time and enjoy it for what it is.

[foal]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think "fun" without use, is different than "pleasure" with use. Is it different enough to support my position? I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree. There does seem to be something less reprehensible about killing for food or "use" as you put it. I just thought I'd throw that idea out there.
I do think that factory farming conditions are so bad that meat (and even eggs and dairy) are very hard to ethically justify.

[Kaj]

[ QUOTE ]
Have you guys stopped and read the PETA homepage? These are not stuff people make up about them, it's actually on THEIR PAGE:

“How can you justify spending your time helping animals when there are so many people who need help?”

PETA-Helping animals is not any more or less important than helping human beings


Read LOTS more insane ideas here:
http://www.peta.com/about/faq.asp

How can anyone with a brain endorse this organization? They are one of the best funded charities on the world with millions in revenue. stop donating you fools

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see one thing crazy about that webpage. However, I found your rant to be lunacy.

[PantsOnFire]

I completely reject the idea that animals should have "rights".

To be given a right whether you're a dog or Canadian person, you need to accept reponsibilities that go along with that right.

Somebody please show me how an animal can accept a responsibility?

[soon2bepro]

They may seem like crackpots, but still, you may want to watch this:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video....amp;speed=_med

(Warning: Some people's sensitivity may be affected by these images.)


Anyway, this shows there's unnecesary pain, I mean I don't think it's all the same if you're a human or animal, but this is ridiculous. How can a sane person do this to a sentient being?

I'm all up for animal research, but this is disgusting... And it's all just so people can wear that [censored]? cmon...

[soon2bepro]

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody please show me how an animal can accept a responsibility?

[/ QUOTE ]

First you show how a newborn human can accept responsibility.