Am I Too Short For Way Ahead/Way Behind?

Foucault · #1 01-01-2006, 07:02 PM

$70 tournament, blinds 300-600, I've got ~5400 after posting the BB. I've got K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. UTG, who's been playing pretty tight, min-raises to 1200. I call.

T2700 in pot. Flop K55r. I check, UTG min bets 600, I call, thinking I'm either way behind AA/AK/KK or ahead and with Villain drawing to 2-3 outs.

T3900 in pot. Turn is an ugly, ugly off-suit A. I check, UTG bets 600, I call.

T5500 in pot. River is a Q. I check, UTG puts me all-in for 4800, I fold.

I know I'm short and all, but I just don't see how I can be ahead on the river. Was it a mistake to call with KQs in the first place? I was hoping to semi-bluff all-in if I picked up a draw or a pair, but on that flop, I just didn't see Villain folding better hands or calling worse hands. Am I just unlucky the A came on the turn? I was willing to get it all-in otherwise.

Psy_Mike · #2 01-01-2006, 07:06 PM

I would say that only calling is a lot worse than pushing either PF or on the flop. You don't have enough chips to keep calling like that in my opinion.

Foucault · #3 01-01-2006, 07:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that only calling is a lot worse than pushing either PF or on the flop. You don't have enough chips to keep calling like that in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what my gut tells me too, but I can't think of a reason why. Obviously no better hands are folding to a push, so are we hoping worse ones call? I think KJ and KT are distant possibilities, maybe QQ puts me on a bluff and calls?

Or is it just that I can't expect him to keep betting a worse hand either, so there's no reason to take any risk at all of him improving, even if he's only got 2-3 outs?

Dave D · #4 01-01-2006, 07:29 PM

Umm, the pot's pretty big on the flop, I really don't see a reason to try to extract more. Villian probbaly isn't getting away from this hand no matter what, and will probably continue to bet. With 9 blinds, I guess the PF call isn't awful, but on the flop I really think you need to make a decision: Push or fold. You may have a teeny bit of fold equity, but its really really likely villian is going to call your push anyway. If he folds, great you win a nice pot, but I see no reason to at the very least let him draw.

In my experiance, the Min raise PF from UTG is basically saying "please pay me, I have Aces, sometimes I have Kings, but it's usually aces". Same with the min bet on the flop, he wants you to come back at him. This would be a really hard fold for me to make, but I think it's the right move. Though you didn't cost yourself that much here, thinking you're going to get a showdown for anythnig but your entire stack is fooling yourself.

Spellcast · #5 01-01-2006, 07:29 PM

I am pushing pre flop.

adanthar · #6 01-01-2006, 07:34 PM

If I called PF (BTW pushing is terrible), the way I'd play this hand is to bet something weird like 1200 on the flop so I could call his push.

Dave D · #7 01-01-2006, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I called PF (BTW pushing is terrible), the way I'd play this hand is to bet something weird like 1200 on the flop so I could call his push.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean pushing preflop is terrible right?

You're trying as hard as possible to get villian to call a push. You're not at all worried he has AK/AA/KK? I'm definatly not one to be scared of monsters under the bed, but villian's actions seem to scream it.

adanthar · #8 01-01-2006, 07:57 PM

If I thought there was a large chance he has one of those I would have folded preflop. Also, if his actions are 'minraise PF, push to weak bet on K55 board', he isn't screaming 'aces.'

Dave D · #9 01-01-2006, 08:07 PM

What do you put him on?

elmitchbo · #10 01-02-2006, 12:18 PM

anytime you're in a way ahead/way behind situation calling is no good.

if you're ahead then raising is the right move. if you're way behind then folding is the rigth move. don't make the mistake of calling as a compromise between the two. choose one of the options that can potentially be right, rather than the option that is almost certainly wrong.

your M is about 6 here, so i think you gotta push preflop. i agree that the minraise is a little scary... what's his stack look like? the smaller raise could just as easily be a weaker hand like a middle pair. i can totally see the guy thinking "i can't raise 4x the BB because that will only leave me with $$??, so i'll just raise the minimum."