****OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD*********

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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Read Ball Four where Jim Bouton openly discusses the use of greenies (or "ability pills") and theoretical PEDs that most of the players he talked to said they would take.


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a huge number of baseball players were taking greenies back then. what Bonds did w/ steroids went far beyond what most other players were doing. You can't just lump the 2 things into the same category. and again, you can't just deal in hypotheticals, and assign guilt where none is due, to explain away what Bonds did.

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This isn't about Bonds. This is about the ultra-competitive nature of sports, especially when you're talking about the top guys. It's very hard to make it to the top of a sport without being very competitive. At that point you're either cheating (bonds, mcgwire, sosa) or gambling (rose, jordan, gretzky).

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This is the "***OFFICIAL BONDS USED STEROIDS THREAD***", so I do think it's about Bonds. I don't see how this story is really about how "you need to be competive to succeed". While I agree with this general statement, it really is a tangential issue here. So what if all guys are competitive? Does that make it ok for them to go to extraordinary lengths to cheat, and then lie about it in a federal grand jury? This extraordinary effort that Barry Bonds went through to use and conceal his use - far beyond what 99% of other athletes go to - is the story here.

[parappa]

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I'm not excusing what Bonds did or anything, but let's be honest here, Bonds is nowhere near unique in the history of baseball. Players have been cheating and lying as long as the game has been around.

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Sure, but there were only a handful that were eligible to be both:

A) At the top echelon of the baseball pantheon
B) Accessible to non-legal performance-enhancing methods.

Do people keep forgetting that Bonds is on the verge of passing BABE RUTH for 2nd on the all-time HR list? That is the difference between him and...Alex Sanchez.

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Willie Mays, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc, all took Amphetamines. These are definitely "non-legal performances-enhancing methods," and baseball agrees as they recently started testing for them...

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What do amphetamines do for you as a baseball player? Sharpen your hitting by decreasing your reaction time? Does that really work?

(Just wondering. I've not heard of this. Edit: Upon reading the whole thread, I'm still not sure what performance-enhancing benefit amphetamines would have. Someone clue me in.)

[Joe Tall]

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What do amphetamines do for you as a baseball player? Sharpen your hitting by decreasing your reaction time? Does that really work?

(Just wondering. I've not heard of this. Edit: Upon reading the whole thread, I'm still not sure what performance-enhancing benefit amphetamines would have. Someone clue me in.)

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It's a long season, 6 months, 162 games and to make it through the aches and pains, ampehtamines sound like a great idea.

[RedBean]

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Did you see images of Bonds from 1997, then 1999?


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Barry Bonds in 1997 (190 lbs)




In 2001 (228 lbs)



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If a guy getting bigger consitutes definitve proof that he is a juicer, then what are your opinions on Shaq over the years? Do these images "prove" Shaq is a juicer as well?

Or is it possible that the onset of weight in the early to mid-30's combined with a voracious workout plan can actually build muscle mass?







Also, although I have no position either way on Bonds, I find it amazing that a few excerpts from a book written out of motivation for profit is taken as gospel truth, despite the actual book not being released yet, nor anyone taking the credibility of the authors into account.

Part of me thinks people already believed what they wanted, and use the publicity surrounding the book as justification rather than evidence.

The only two facts I know for sure are:

1. Bonds has never tested positive, despite being tested randomly over the past two years.
2. Despite being the main target in the BALCO investigation, no charges were ever brought against him, only against others.


Also, of the alleged substances, it is said one of them remains in the system for up to 4 years, and that seems contradictory to the clean tests, unless of course, you take into account the book may not be 100% accurate, which many with preconcieved notions are just not willing to do.

All said, all I see is a bunch of circumstantial evidence, and he may very well have done it, but it is a bit forward for anyone to assert it as a "fact".

What happens if he smacks 50 homers this year after being tested clean for 2 straight years? What will be the next to blame....his handcrafted maple bats instead of ashwood lumber?

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Easier answer for Bonds. If it's false, he should sue them for libel. He's got the money to bankroll a litigation, and it should be pretty easy to prove that what's written in the book is false -- for example, that the records they say exist do not exist in reality.

[RedBean]

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Easier answer for Bonds. If it's false, he should sue them for libel. He's got the money to bankroll a litigation, and it should be pretty easy to prove that what's written in the book is false -- for example, that the records they say exist do not exist in reality.

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Very true, but what is to gain by a multi-millionare who is at the sunset of his career and about to enjoy the rest of his life in luxury have to gain by instead spending 4-5 years tied up in civil courts suing two newspaper columnists with a combined net worth of less that one week's pay?

Not to mention, no matter what outcome of any libel suit, the publicity of it will remain on the fornt page and people will villify him no matter the outcome.

When I read the synopsis that one of the authors was fired from a job early in his career for fictionalizing news articles, and the other was barred from teh Giants clubhouse in the late 90's for villifying players, it made me question their motivation and credibility.

I'm not saying Bonds is squeaky clean by any measure, he may be, he may not be, but I find it amazing how everyone places INSTANT credibility and infallibility in these two authors who they know nothing about, just to justify their preconcieved notions on Bonds.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

your argument has many many holes in it. the biggest few are:

the Shaq/Bonds comparison is a terrible one. For one, Bonds got bigger at a much older age. In addition, his performance increased at a huge clip once he started taking steroids/getting bigger.
Larry Mahnken posted these stats over at Baseball Primer:

Bonds before 1998 (the year the SI piece labels the beginning of his steroid usage):

.288/.411/.551, 374 HRs (6069 ABs)

after '98

.323/.506/.730, 334 HRs (3071 ABs)

Also, the reason Bonds has never tested positive for steroids is explained by none other than his dopers in the evidence. They have stayed well ahead of the testers. The fact that he has never tested positive for banned substances doesn't actually mean much.

sorry, but if you don't think Bonds was juicing, you're an idiot.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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Very true, but what is to gain by a multi-millionare who is at the sunset of his career and about to enjoy the rest of his life in luxury have to gain by instead spending 4-5 years tied up in civil courts suing two newspaper columnists with a combined net worth of less that one week's pay?

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his reputation, his family's reputation, and entry into the Hall of Fame.

[RedBean]

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your argument has many many holes in it. the biggest few are:


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It's not an argument.

I was simply saying I was amazed at how many folks are blindly following everything in this book as gospel truth and absolute fact. Especially considering the book hasn't even been released.


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In addition, his performance increased at a huge clip once he started taking steroids/getting bigger.


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Let's say I were going to write a libelous book saying Bonds was a doper. Naturally, I would fit my alleged timeline to fit his increase in production.

Alex Sanchez definitavely tested positive for steriods. Has the same statistical analysis been done on his career, and were the same differences seen?

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sorry, but if you don't think Bonds was juicing, you're an idiot.

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Maybe I do think he juiced. My only point is that me thinking it, and you thinking it, and two guys writing a book that think it, doesn't necessarily make it a fact.

It makes for good book sales, and it makes people who hate Bonds feel good.

The only absolute facts are he has never tested positive, has not convicted of any crime, nor breaking any MLB rule.

[RedBean]

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his reputation, his family's reputation, and entry into the Hall of Fame.

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DO you really think anyone's thoughts on him would change? It's quite obvious by the outrage and villification in this thread alone and the media in general since the announcement yesterday that preconcieved notions exist no matter what the actual truth is.

Consider this, for everyone in this thread pointing to this book as absolute proof of Bonds misdeeds, not a single one of them has actually read the book.

Would you not feel sheepish if the book came out and also detailed how Bonds sold his soul to the devil, or actually arrived via UFO in the mid-60's and his super alien strength is the source of his power?

My only point was I am amazed at how much credibility everyone is giving to something they have not even read, and it smacks of their preconcieved notions, not of factual evidence.