Nut Flush Draw and Overcards

mojobluesman · #1 07-23-2007, 06:23 PM

NO reads at all

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25./$0.5
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 raises, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8.4SB, 4 players)
BB checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.2BB, 4 players)
BB bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.2BB, 4 players)
BB bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, Button folds, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.2BB

bravos1 · #2 07-23-2007, 06:32 PM

3bet PF, not sure I raise the river.

mojobluesman · #3 07-23-2007, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3bet PF, not sure I raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

3bet PF because it was an open raiser from middle position that I probably have beat, correct?

Had it been a raise of a limp or an early position raiser, then cold call?

Why no raise on river?

waynethetrain · #4 07-23-2007, 07:11 PM

3-Bet Pre-Flop. AQs is likely best against an open raiser from middle position. Clear out the rest of the players with a raise.

What hands that you beat will call your river raise?

NIX · #5 07-23-2007, 07:14 PM

I 3-bet preflop.

Also, I somewhat want to raise the flop as played. I doubt I'll take the pot down, but I may be able to free card the turn, plus Button might be loose/passive enough (he did cold call preflop) to call 2 on the flop (which I'm not upset with) since the pot is starting to get big.

As played on the river, I don't really know what BB is up to, so I probably call and hope Button overcalls.

Xhad · #6 07-23-2007, 07:14 PM

I'd 3bet preflop and raise the flop. I'd probably call the river since unless button also has a heart draw he's probably going to overcall one but not two and if we get 3bet we're in trouble.

Point Blank · #7 07-23-2007, 07:22 PM

i'm probably 3betting AQ preflop in the spot (I think this depends on the generaly game play of that limit and site ... which I don't know)

i'm probably raising the flop too ... but calling to build a larger pot isn't that bad either

on the river ... I think raising is a pretty bad move

there are two other guys calling down - you have the nut flush draw (that makes it unlikely that both of these guy also have the flush draw)
there are a couple of low straight draws on the board - but with two guys calling I would assume that at least one has hit the board (or has a smaller pp) and will call (after they call the turn)

so unless this guy is going to 3bet a worse hand you put yourself in a losing situation by not going for overcalls(especially since you'll likely call a 3bet, and lose)

mojobluesman · #8 07-23-2007, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd 3bet preflop and raise the flop. I'd probably call the river since unless button also has a heart draw he's probably going to overcall one but not two and if we get 3bet we're in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does raising on the flop accomplish?

I really don't have a hand to protect. By raising I might knock out a weaker Ace or Queen that would call me down if I spiked either and I'm also knocking out players I would like to have involved if I spiked the flush.

Is the problem with the river raise that there's no upside to it?

I don't really understand the thinking there.

Xhad · #9 07-23-2007, 07:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What does raising on the flop accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mostly freecarding, with a side of outs buying and it's not impossible our hand is good. All he did was pfr from a mid position and make a possible cbet, many high card hands including worse As are still in his range.

[ QUOTE ]
Is the problem with the river raise that there's no upside to it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorta. Basically:

-I assume BB never folds this river. He probably calls if your hand is good and raises if it's not. So you lose 2/3 bets when behind to him (depending on if you were folding to a 3bet) and win 1 extra if ahead.
-Given how button played this hand he usually either has a made hand worse than yours, worse hearts or occasionally something like Q9 that made 2 pair. He's basically always raising 2pair and folding busted hearts. The most important part is that something like A9 can probably fold the river for 2 cold but will probably overcall if it got this far. If you raise and get 3bet that's similarly bad to raising BB when he has you beat, except it's easier to fold to a 3bet

So basically raising is only better when you have BB beat AND button has busted hearts. If you're beat by either player calling is obviously better, and if you have BB beat and button has a made hand then you're still getting the same 2BB you would have gotten if you raised.

mojobluesman · #10 07-23-2007, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mostly freecarding, with a side of outs buying and it's not impossible our hand is good. All he did was pfr from a mid position and make a possible cbet, many high card hands including worse As are still in his range.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I played the hand, I briefly considered the "buying outs" factor, but rejected it.

If I had a weak A or Q and might get a stronger A or Q to fold with a raise, that would be great. But I had strong A and Q. If anything, I wanted weaker ones to call if one came out. At least that's the way I was thinking about it.