A hand

[James282]

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Just becuz the hero's hand is likely to be ahead of the villain's 3betting range does not necessarily mean that capping is the best play...As you know, limit hold 'em is a multi-street game.

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Could you be any more condescending? Are you seriously telling me that hold 'em is a multi-street game? I realize my response was brief, but your response is long-winded and insanely basic. I did not say to fourbet every time if we believe we are ahead of his range. I said to fourbet every time if his hand range includes hands we dominate and he will continue to play bizarrely postflop. This is the crux of the position here. I know that there are many times where, in position, we can afford to disguise our hand and expect to gain more bets later on. Believe it or not, I have played a few hands of limit hold 'em.


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Holdem is too complicated of a game to ever say that capping is absolutely madatory.

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No, it isn't. There are certain times where it is absolutely mandatory. When you have the absolute nuts on the river while heads-up, putting as many bets in as possible is mandatory. When you have aces in a ten-way pot and you can either call the third bet and close the action, or make it fourbets, it's mandatory. There are certain times where, mathematically, it is insanely stupid not to cap. This is NOT one of those times. This time, it's a combination of the math(you have a very good chance of being a 2:1 favorite, at least according to Clark's original post) and the fact that our opponent will still give us plenty of action regardless of our cap. This is true in many high-stakes games, especially against opponents who aren't as good as we are.

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Against certain opponents it may be best to pass up our edge preflop, depending on how our opponent will react postflop to the hero's cap versus the how the villain will react postflop if the hero just calls the 3bet.

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I believe this hand is evidence that our opponent falls into the category of "we should take our edges every time we can get them, because he will continue to give us plenty of opportunities for more money on later streets regardless of the strength we show," as there are very few hands he could have here that he has played well against Clark's range and table image.

So please, save your essay on why 4-betting preflop with the best hand is "sometimes not the right play." I have considered this before. Instead of jumping on what you believed to be a mistake, you should have read my close more carefully. While it was short, you managed to miss half of the reason I gave why fourbetting was best.
-James

EDIT: I just noticed that you saw Clarkmeister say basically what I did(except that he elaborated more) and now you agree. Oh well, maybe you learned something from this post anyway and will read posts more carefully, so you won't have to take ten times as long to come to the correct decision.

[Clarkmeister]

The results are pretty anticlimactic. I posted the hand because of what I felt on the river, namely, that it just felt like there was no way he could expect me to fold, and he "obviously" had an ace, yet for whatever reason it didn't feel like an ace so I basically called because "I wanted to see it".

Anyways, I didn't get to see it. I called. He tapped the felt and mucked without showing.

[Westley878]

James, I am sorry that my post came off as condescending. I didnt intend it to sound that way. When I said that holdem was too complicated of a game to ever say that capping is mandatory, I meant in this specific preflop situation. I shouldve been more clear.

I was not convinced that capping was the best play preflop against this opponent until I read Clark's response.

Im sorry if I offended you in any way.

[andyfox]

"it just felt like there was no way he could expect me to fold"

Good thing you wanted to see what he had.

[Emperor]

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As far as metagame, I think folding or raising the river is the stronger play

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Interesting idea.

Regarding another interesting idea, would you bet the river if checked to?

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I would NOT bet the river if checked to, that would imply something other than a busted flush draw.

Raising the river here is also bad imo because he isn't calling with anything you beat, and I doubt he is folding for one more bet if he has any hand.

I see flush draws played like this A LOT. Heck, sometimes I play flush draws like this to mix it up.

[SA125]

Nothing beats instincts in poker and it's something that can't be taught. NH.

[skp]

An over-used (but still highly effective) play in the online games is for a guy in your opponent's shoes with an Ace to checkcall twice and bet the river. But this hand shows that the guy might be able to do better than that in some circumstances by donk betting the turn and river. The presence of a flush draw on the flop that misses on the turn and river adds to the effectivenss of this donking parlay.

[obi---one]

In general, I like your line. you want to get to a showdown and have position. ideally, your opponent is capable in mucking a better hand when you raise the turn.
of course, your opponent is probably going to call turn with a higher pair because this play is so common. and from your description, you open yourself up to a three bet by a flush draw, Putting you in a bad spot where you are possibly throwing away the best hand.
As far as the river is concerned. ugg. I probably call on-line and usually muck live without a read. But the pot is so big it is hard to throw away your hand for one bet. A potential problem with the raise the turn line. I guess you can flip a coin on rvr.

thats why against good players or in big pots against unpredictable opponents when holding mediocre hands, I think the best line is to get to showdown as cheaply as possibly. That way you can't get outplayed and you get to see the results.

[mike l.]

"in big pots against unpredictable opponents when holding mediocre hands, I think the best line is to get to showdown as cheaply as possibly."

perfect.

[rigoletto]

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I think he has a hand such as QhJh or something often enough that you need to call the river, given that he probably views you as tight enough to fold some non ace pairs. His line just doesn't _feel_ like the way he should plausibly play an ace.

I assume you were going to check behind on the river?

I'm pretty sure I raise the turn too because I generally take the "pauses, ponders, bets" thing live as meaning he doesn't like his hand that much, but doesn't know what to do with it.

I like the post, glad to see you outside of Sports/OOT/NVG again.

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I often play on these 'feelings' too. Lately I've been more dilligent in trying to identify what my gut is telling me. In this case I believe it comes down to villain trying to hard to fold hero in the cheapest possible way.

I often see you make these kind of comments and I whish your excellent poker mind would spell it our for the benefit of the rest of us - please!