Michael Moore and socialized medicine

[tehox]

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Socialized health care becomes a disaster if you think of the web of incentives it would create. I shouldn't have to care if someone smokes or overeats, but as soon as I have to pay everyone else's medical bills, I'm going to start caring about their personal life. I can see even more smoking bans and food bans on the horizon if we change to an institution where everyone has to worry about each other's behavior. Next thing you know there'll be a law requiring everyone to brush their teeth.

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Good point

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I think it's important to note how people have been calling it "free", since that's exactly how regular people will treat it too. Socialized health care is a dream for hypochondriacs. Got a cramp, or a broken fingernail, or maybe don't have friends who pay attention to your concerns? Call your doctor.

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This is not really different now from those who now have health insurance. And I personally don't think this argument holds water though. Seeking medical treatment takes up time and is not fun. I think that is incentive enough for people to be judicious with the care they seek.

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To be blunt, terminally ill people will waste enormous amounts of resources too. Over 50% of medical bills currently come from people's last 6 months of life. That is only possible because other people are already footing part of the bill. When the cost is effectively zero to use, people will obviously take maximum advantage.

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I agree, but they alreay do cost a lot of money. I think that if we are going to try to minimize the cost of health care, this is really a national debate that is going to need to take place.

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As for Canada, up there animals get faster and better health care than humans. An example was when one Canadian had a horse that needed gall bladder treatment. Called the vet, he was over the next day, problem solved. Coincidentally, the fellow had the problem himself. He had to wait upwards of 14 weeks. Why? Because veterinary services aren't strangled by regulations, which allows them to avoid enormous waiting lists.

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LOL you by chance hear about that in an email someone forwarded to you?

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Wouldn't you say Ph D biologists probably have the same intellectual abilities as medical doctors or thereabouts? Yet strangely, biologists on average get 1/3 the salary. That should clue everyone in that something fishy is going on... Why aren't more biologists simply becoming doctors? The reasons lie in the barriers to entry in the U.S., especially from the AMA union, which has enormous influence. They love regulations that artificially create shortages in health care, therefore raising their own salaries. Want to open a new medical school, or even allow more students to go through one that is already open? Have to go ask them for permission. Want to practice medicine in the US, but you aren't a citizen? Too bad. Want to take a test and get certified, but can't speak English? Too bad.

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I think you do have a point here. I think that there need to be regulations about who and how people can become doctors, but it is kind strange that the # of doctors are so limited in the U.S.

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As in so many different industries, the best advice for health care is to lift the burden of regulations and allow capitalism to do its thing. We trust greedy grocery store owners to provide us with food, and that's even more important to survival. Hopefully people realize our trust in them isn't because they're just a nicer group of guys than doctors are.

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I think this is the main point where people disagree. I think most people agree that capitalism and the free market works very well. However, if you think that everyones life is equally important, and everyone deserves equal health care, then capitalism is obv not going to get it done.

[tehox]

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The awesomeness that is socialized dental care.

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Wow the British "socialized" dental system is not perfect. That means that all government intervention into health care will result in failure.

[NeBlis]

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The awesomeness that is socialized dental care.

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Wow the British "socialized" dental system is not perfect. That means that all government intervention into health care will result in failure.

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well ... since every single current and past example of socialized medicine suck I tend to doubt we are going to magically come up with a perect one. Maybe you are thinking of some different government than I am living with

[NeBlis]

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However, if you think that everyones life is equally important, and everyone deserves equal health care,

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WTF ??? where the hell do you people come up with this crap?

Everyone is NOT equal but they do have equal opportunity. Everyone doesn't have equal heath care but they do have equal access.

[MrMon]

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I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes. Is that much more than in the US?

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You are tremendously underestimating the amount of taxes you pay. You pay 25% in income tax on a middle class income. Plus, you pay a 24% VAT on the money you have left. Plus, your government is tremdously subsidized by oil income. Government in Norway is 46% of GDP, the U.S. is about 36.5%. Without oil, Norway would be in real trouble.

[tehox]

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The awesomeness that is socialized dental care.

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Wow the British "socialized" dental system is not perfect. That means that all government intervention into health care will result in failure.

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well ... since every single current and past example of socialized medicine suck I tend to doubt we are going to magically come up with a perect one. Maybe you are thinking of some different government than I am living with

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I don't think any system is going to be a "perfect" one.

I think the main point that people disagree on (at least in this forum) is the sanctity of every human life and the length that we should go as a society to protect that. Another question is what length we are going to go to provide health care to everyone (for those that want to do that). You put enough $$$ into it and everyone could have top notch health care.

To me a sort of trivial question is how more/less efficient or costly would government paid for health care cost (and I think it is important to note that not even Canada has truly "socialized" health care). I personally don't buy that more government intervention would really equal more costly/less efficient care. I think part of this has do with the fact that already there is significant government intervention, and oftentimes local/state govt and charities pick up the slack. So the $$$ are being spent and many uninsured people are still getting health care, just not very efficiently.
I think most importantly that health care is really different than other industries. I think that not only are you doing with something that a price can't be put on, people's health and lives, but the people involved in the industry are also very different. People in medicine are very smart and very motivated and especially these days are in a very demanding career path, where they could probably make more money doing other things. And I don't see how goverment intervention is really giong to change that.

[tehox]

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Everyone doesn't have equal heath care but they do have equal access.

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Don't really know what you mean by this. I guess hypothetically if there was total equality of opportunity, then everyone would have an equal opportunity of making enough money to pay for their health care?

[tehox]

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I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes. Is that much more than in the US?

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You are tremendously underestimating the amount of taxes you pay. You pay 25% in income tax on a middle class income. Plus, you pay a 24% VAT on the money you have left. Plus, your government is tremdously subsidized by oil income. Government in Norway is 46% of GDP, the U.S. is about 36.5%. Without oil, Norway would be in real trouble.

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Norway is one of the most socialized countries in the world. And also has one the highest per capita GDP. I know I know think about how well they would be doing if they weren't socialized. Couple factoids for you 1) Norways govt puts 3/4 of all oil profits into savings for the future 2)Russia makes approx much money from oil as % of GDP as Norway.

[karlwig]

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I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes.

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I think your wrong on your numbers. average personal tax in Norway is 28% plus a VAT of 23%

what if you were able to save and invest that money ?






I'm not wrong at those numbers. I said what I paid. And average tax is not the same as what I pay. I don't know about that 28 number you've got, but there isn't a added VAT to that, that's for sure.
Your last question i don't get. You mean we shouldn't pay tax at all?

Oh, and please let me know what you pay in the US, since 28% seemed so much...

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I'm happy to pay my share though, and of course I take it for granted that people with more money also should give more to the society.



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I thought all people were equal. why are some more responsible and some just lay around and get a check?





Because then the wealth would be spread out to all people - since they are equal, they deserve to have the same oppertunities. I think you answered your own question.


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Still, nobody pay more than 50% in taxes maximum. So it's still plenty of room to get rich and follow your dreams.

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it its just UNFREAKIN REAL that you are talking about stealing half of a persons life to prop up some misguided attempt at social justice. If every life in sacred and all people are equal why then is it ok to take away half of a persons monetary utility. unreal.

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Well of course, this is the idea of socialism that Americans don't like no matter what, so I'm not gonna try to convince you too much.

All I can say is that the goal is to make the best society for MOST people. That means some give away more than others. Otherwise there would be some very poor, and some very rich, like in the US. THe whole point is to make these differences go away. Still a hard working guy would earn more than some idiot just wasting his life.

The problem with capitalism is that people with money can easilly make more money, while poor people rarely gets richer. [ QUOTE ]

[karlwig]

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I'm from Norway. In 2006 I worked full-time and payed 25% of my income in taxes. Is that much more than in the US?

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You are tremendously underestimating the amount of taxes you pay. You pay 25% in income tax on a middle class income. Plus, you pay a 24% VAT on the money you have left. Plus, your government is tremdously subsidized by oil income. Government in Norway is 46% of GDP, the U.S. is about 36.5%. Without oil, Norway would be in real trouble.

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Norway is one of the most socialized countries in the world. And also has one the highest per capita GDP. I know I know think about how well they would be doing if they weren't socialized. Couple factoids for you 1) Norways govt puts 3/4 of all oil profits into savings for the future 2)Russia makes approx much money from oil as % of GDP as Norway.

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Actually we use much less then 1/4 of our savings if you're talking about a yearly basis. The goverment budget is around 140 billion dollars. around 5 billions of the money used comes from oil profits... the rest is normal income like all countries have, like tax and VAT and some export.