2/4, QTs SB defence

[TheWunderkind]

99 44 A9 AJ AT AQ Q9 T9 KJ J8 KQ basiclly

[mvoss]

TWK when I wrote that you fold too much it was in response to you asking why a non-maniac would raise this river with a worse hand. A tricky aggressive player will raise the river in a pot this size often enough for you to call, and he'll especially do it if you fold too much. I of course have no idea whether you do fold too much. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear from my original post.

I agree that this discussion isn't fruitful, since we disagree about the premises on which this hand was played. In my book a villain who raises A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the J66 flop and bet/calls the turn 8 is aggressive and tricky. Bottom line is that folding can be a huge mistake, while calling at worst is a small one. I will repeat myself one more time and say that folding decent hands in big pots against aggressive tricky players is a big leak.

[TheWunderkind]

so what hands exactly?


I also disagree that folding can be that huge of a mistake because most of the Time you just loose

as i said > when iam at a Table iam always aware of my image and in that hand villains image was pretty good so no reason even for a tricky and aggro player to believe villain will fold a better ahnd or call with a worse one here

Whatever i agree with the overall message of your Posts

[yourface]

we are going to be capped by a set or straight, so we need to be ahead 66% of the time to 3bet since we are risking 2 bets (well, we do have some equity but w/e) to win 1 (and so does he usually, but I don't want to work all that out).

behind: 99*3, 44*3, KJ*16, J8*16 --> 38 combos
ahead: A9*12 (quite unlikely imo), AJ*16 (meh maybe), AT*12 (unlikely imo), AQ*12 (somewhat likely), T9*9, KQ*8 --> 69 combos

so we are ahead 64% of the time. and to be honest I really don't think his range is that wide. AT and A9 especially seem very unlikely, and he will raise the flop with pairs a lot of the time.

imo straights make up a big part of his range. I would have reraised this at the table for sure, but I don't think it's right versus a non-spewtard.

[jba]

you guys definitely need to put stuff like QJ/JT/A9hh/J9 in his range as well. way more likely than A9/AT/AJ.

[Lost Wages]

You can eaisly add QJ and of course QT to his range. We don't have a great read after a couple of orbits other than it apperars he's aggressive. If he loose/aggressive his range is much wider: 89, K9, any pocket pair raising for free showdown, maybe even any ace, some ridiculous hands like 6s5s (yes lags call the flop with that). Remember also, the villian just lost a huge pot with an ace-high flush against the hero so it's likely he ticked and the chances that his turn raise is out of frustration is higher.

Lost Wages

[henkeee]

[ QUOTE ]
some ridiculous hands like 6s5s

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much what he had
5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[TheWunderkind]

lol that makes my posts pretty much worthless, no wait not unless he did bluffraise the River > did he?

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
Muck that cheese preflop, double so against an opponent who's going to put you to the test postflop. Be honest with yourself; do you really think that you will show a profit by 3-betting QTs OOP or are you 3-betting because you know he's "stealing" and you don't want him to get away with it. The latter is a natural human reaction and happens to all of us. Pick a better spot IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree strongly with the above. Without stoving it, I imagine QTs does well vs. this guys range, which, as described, is immense. Not to mention the dead money of the BB folding, and the fact that villain is spewtarded postflop. Yes, we're OOP, but that's not so terrible against a villain who will be our hands for us.

Maybe it's a leak of mine, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a single reg in the PS 2/4 that I would not 3-bet QTs from the SB vs. a button steal - I feel that I either get fold equity from the 3-bet, or know that they will overplay post flop enough to make up for any -EQ my hand has hot and cold.

[NinaWilliams]

About preflop, depending on how bb plays, this looks like it could be a good spot to cold call.