Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In

[Andy B]

Don't play shorthanded much, but I can't see playing them there, either. I don't know how to play QJT. If I'm in a shorthanded game, there's a reason I'm in there. I'm playing against that guy with hands I know how to play.

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play QT9 or QJT or KQJ either. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ] As a default strategy that's fine. If the bringin completes with *every* low card 3 or 4 handed, you're very likely losing a bit by not considering playing them. The major deciding factor is how well the bringin plays on later streets. Will he peel after bricking 4th? How about 5th? Will he call down with a small 2pr? The more mistakes he makes from 4th on the more we lose by not playing the KQJ and QJT type hands (I could never fault someone for forever folding QJ9).

Consider this, here's how the following hands do heads up vs. a few of the bringin's likely completing hands.

Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

Ks Jc Qh .451
6s 8d 3h .549

Js Ts Qh .507
Ah Jc 6h .493

Remember, we're referring so someone who completes *every* time. As you can see, there is opportunity for profit against this sort, provided they make sufficient mistakes later in the hand - which virtually all of these donks, who comlete every time they're the sole low card on board, do. I've found the weak players are there for a reason - and attacking them is a reasonable course of action. If one doesn't have the stomach for the variance involved then simply folding doesn't lose all that much, but it certainly won't maximize EV.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

[/ QUOTE ]

So we're barely a favorite when the other guy has complete crap. Even if the other guy is completing with anything, we're going to be out of position, and we'll be forced to make Fundamental Theorem errors when his board develops. I honestly don't think I'm giving up anything at all by passing on these hands every time.

QJ9 has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ.

[SweetLuckyMe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

[/ QUOTE ]

So we're barely a favorite when the other guy has complete crap. Even if the other guy is completing with anything, we're going to be out of position, and we'll be forced to make Fundamental Theorem errors when his board develops. I honestly don't think I'm giving up anything at all by passing on these hands every time.

QJ9 has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ.

[/ QUOTE ] You've missed the point, entirely. If you don't think you're giving up anything then you can't think you make better decisions than the donk bringing in full all the time. If that's truly the case then find another game.

[Andy B]

The fact that I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't understand you. And the fact that I don't think that this is an advantageous situation doesn't prevent me from having an edge over this guy, and to be sure, it doesn't prevent me from having an edge in the game. If he's bringing it in full with anything underneath, he's likely making other errors that I can and will take advantage of.

[SweetLuckyMe]

Fair enough Andy. You did say you don't play much short-handed.

It's just the short-handed beast inside me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You can't put him on tilt by doing a lot of folding. You can't run him over by doing a lot of folding. You can't fully exploit him by doing a lot of folding. But you can minimize variance and get a tight image.

[Amanjyaku]

How many players do you consider "shorthanded?"

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't put him on tilt by doing a lot of folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, but there's also less chance that I'll tilt myself. Playing $30/60 stud/8, I tend to err on the side of playing too tight. Stud/8 is the most tilt-inducing game I've played, and by passing on a few very small edges here and there, I greatly reduce the chance that something will set me off.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't run him over by doing a lot of folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's bringing it in full with junk, he's probably playing pretty loose the rest of the time. He's probably not a good candidate for running over.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't fully exploit him by doing a lot of folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can exploit him enough.

[ QUOTE ]
But you can minimize variance and get a tight image.

[/ QUOTE ]

That second one serves me pretty well most of the time.

I have played quite a bit of shorthanded LHE over the years, and I am quite loose/aggressive in those games.

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
The major deciding factor is how well the bringin plays on later streets. Will he peel after bricking 4th? How about 5th? Will he call down with a small 2pr?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say that is someone who is aggressive and picks spots for bluff raises. He's not a maniac, but he is capable of an occasional three-bet bluff to keep me on my toes. He's not really a call down sort of guy. If he bricks 4th, he will sometimes represent that brick paired one of his hole cards and sometimes it actually does pair one of his hole cards and I can't figure out what percentage of the time he is likely to be bluffing. I hate having a hand like a pair of tens on third against this sort of player. I feel like I understand how to play against this sort of action in stud-high, but I get very confused in high-low.

[Alchemist]

FWIW I ran a sim with the following parameters:

Hero has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain has xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Dead cards: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] since it's shorthanded and all the other players have big cards.

Hero's equity was generally 44.5-45%.

Tweaking Hero's hand and the dead cards didn't change the numbers much.