idiot!

[jt1]

The pot is 13 bb before the turn raise. What's one extra bb to try to improve your chances in this very large pot? And if it doesn't improve you chances any, it still does 2 other things. 1) it improves your equity greatly when you are ahead. And, 2)some % of the time, you'll get away with just spending 2 bb to see a SD. And it's for that reason that I don't like the river bet.

[marching_on_together]

If you can fold to a 3 bet and check down the river I don't hate raising the turn as BB looks to be either on a draw or have a one pair hand that got scared.

[jt1]

Sometimes a monster hand will bet because he's suddenly afraid of it getting checked through. But it doesn't happen very often, imo. Once he donks, he either has the King or you're ahead. And this pot is huge: I also like calling down if 3-bet as even if bb folds on the turn, you only have to win 10% of the time.

[milesdyson]

I just wanted to repeat that I think this turn decision is between call and fold and not call and raise. I haven't read any poker literature, but judging by what I see in these forums, either I disagree with everything ever written about "raise/fold" turn decisions, or you are all misinterpreting what others have written. The parlay is so massive that you both have the best hand and that you're offering incorrect odds to some drawing hand. It never happens.

[Oink]

Neither BB or UTG has KK. If hero raises he is faced with at least a 17:1 odds with 2 pretty clean outs and good implied odds. Raise/folding this hand in what is typically an aggressive game in a HUGE pot is so extremely bad I dont even know where to start.

I have read Sklanskys books on LHE. I am pretty sure he advices to raise/fold in a few spots, but I doubt he advices it against tricky opponents in big pots. Plz... Folders dont win!!!

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
just wanted to repeat that I think this turn decision is between call and fold and not call and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, yes - I did just re-read SSHE.

Fold is not an option. The decision is between calling and raising, not folding or raising, folding or calling, or anything else involving a fold.

[ QUOTE ]
The parlay is so massive that you both have the best hand and that you're offering incorrect odds to some drawing hand. It never happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) You don't have to be offering incorrect odds for a bet or raise to be correct. You are simply reducing his equity when he's drawing.

2)Nor do you have to have the best hand for raising to be correct. If it buys you a free SD (like in this hand) then clearly raising is better than calling.

The only reason not to raise is to save 2 extra bets. And if Hero knew that he was either crushed or crushing both opponents then he should call because he doesn't gain anything by raising (the same # of bb goes into the pot if he's planning on checking the river through). However, if villains had a total of say 8 outs between them and raising eliminates half of them than raising is correct. He gets an extra 1.5 bb should a 4 outer fold. So he would need to be ahead 4/7 times to make raising correct. And that's assuming he'll never catch a set on the river and that the turn donker will always 3-bet him when ahead and that his queen would never makes bb a straight when bb folds to the two bets on the turn. All in all, he probably only needs to be ahead half as often to make raising correct.

[jt1]

Oh, I think I may have mis-read what you wrote. You are arguing that the turn is absolutely not a raise/fold situation: Calling down would be better. I agree but raise/calling down is best.

[vmacosta]

jt1,
You are not thinking clearly. The only hands you can give bad odds to by raising are {AJ, Q9, Tx, 5x, 2x}. All the other hands would either be getting bad odds for just one bet {Ax,J9,PP's} or good enough odds even for 2 bets {AQ,QJ,A4,A3}. The latter hands + all hands that already beat you outweigh the former when you include the pf and flop action.

Furthermore, you still have to beat UTG who appears to have you crushed (and if not he's way behind, its VERY unlikely he has just a draw).

Finally, you insist on calling down if 3 bet which kills any merits there were to raising.

[jt1]

[ QUOTE ]
All the other hands would either be getting bad odds for just one bet {Ax,J9,PP's} or good enough odds even for 2 bets {AQ,QJ,A4,A3}.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising. Moreover, a turn donk is unlikely to 3-bet you. (If he does, I'd still call down because you are getting 9-1 at worst and 12-1 at best.) If you improve your equity enoiugh then that will make up for the times you get 3-bet.

[Zeldark]

UTG did in fact call the river? Then he claims that you would only be called if you were losing? I find that very ironic.