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#61
03-21-2007, 03:56 PM
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Re: Dumping.
Tom - you're right. People are moral agents. Why is it the only morality you're willing to recognize is the rights of the rich to exploit the poor?
And how is it you can't recognize that society is created by people? 
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#62
03-21-2007, 03:59 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
This was a clear reference to the example I just gave: someone starving to death who needs to work for money. To say that they aren't "forced" to do a really crappy job is ridiculous. edit: You can say the employer himself isn't forcing the person, but they are forced. This is fact. [/ QUOTE ] Fine, but your original statement was this- [ QUOTE ] Actually the bigger problem with Wal-Mart is that it forces producers to lower prices, but I'm sure you knew that. [/ QUOTE ] Based on this new post, is it safe to say you no longer support your original statement? And that maybe perhaps *gasp* we can agree on something? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#63
03-21-2007, 04:03 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
And how is it you can't recognize that society is created by people? [/ QUOTE ] What makes you think he doesn't recognize this?
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#64
03-21-2007, 04:05 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
And how is it you can't recognize that society is created by people? [/ QUOTE ] Society is created by productive people, Tom is likely against removing rewards for that production which enables people who produce less to survive and even thrive. Look at a population graph for the history of the world, it doesn't suddenly grow exponentially because a benevolent king decided to give everyone enough food, a handfull of people made improvements which spread and affected everyone.
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#65
03-21-2007, 04:19 PM
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Re: Dumping.
If you live in a society where your choice is starve to death or work for slave wages, that society is socially constructed. Specifically, it's constructed by the people who benefit from it.
The fact that there isn't one particular person doing it doesn't mean the choice isn't being imposed. And "nature" isn't responsible for it. People - specifically the people who are running things, who are making the rules - are responsible. If we were living in a state of nature, perhaps he'd have a point. But we're not living in a state of nature. We're not hunting and gathering anymore. (Though even hunter-gatherers share.) We're living in a socially constructed civilization, the rules of which are created by people - not nature. And we're entitled to create rules that we like.
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#66
03-21-2007, 04:23 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
Society is created by productive people, Tom is likely against removing rewards for that production which enables people who produce less to survive and even thrive. Look at a population graph for the history of the world, it doesn't suddenly grow exponentially because a benevolent king decided to give everyone enough food, a handfull of people made improvements which spread and affected everyone. [/ QUOTE ] Society improved because of the introduction of good government. And this [ QUOTE ] Society is created by productive people [/ QUOTE ] is either a lie, or a sleight of hand. Rich people are not necessarily productive, and productive people are not necessarily rich.
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#67
03-21-2007, 04:24 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
If you live in a society where your choice is starve to death or work for slave wages, [/ QUOTE ] And where exactly is this occuring? [ QUOTE ] If we were living in a state of nature, perhaps he'd have a point. But we're not living in a state of nature. [/ QUOTE ] What do you define as a state of nature? Locke defined it as living without government, no? [ QUOTE ] And we're entitled to create rules that we like. [/ QUOTE ] And what exactly is it that entiltes "you" (who is you, btw) to impose the rules you like on everyone else?
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#68
03-21-2007, 04:25 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
Society improved because of the introduction of good government. [/ QUOTE ] lol. How come when I called you out to prove this assertion in the other thread you dropped it, yet you still try to pass it off in other threads? STOP ASSERTIING!
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#69
03-21-2007, 04:48 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
And where exactly is this occuring? [/ QUOTE ] Nowhere. Fortunately, we live under a representative democracy, not anarchocapitalism. [ QUOTE ] And what exactly is it that entiltes "you" (who is you, btw) to impose the rules you like on everyone else? [/ QUOTE ] Representative democracy. [ QUOTE ] STOP ASSERTIING! [/ QUOTE ] I will if you will. Now how is it exactly that ACism will solve problems of road and transportation networks? Or public safety? Or national defense? Thanks.
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#70
03-21-2007, 04:55 PM
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Re: Dumping.
[ QUOTE ]
Nowhere. Fortunately, we live under a representative democracy, not anarchocapitalism. [/ QUOTE ] Now show me how the government is stopping this scenario. [ QUOTE ] Forced Representative democracy. [/ QUOTE ] Not to mention it's farcisical. As I've posted before from the faq- [ QUOTE ] 9) But government works for the public good Alternative AC faq There are problems with this vulgar utilitarian view. What is the common good? (No one agrees.) If we somehow knew the common good, how do we implement it? (No one knows.) Even if we implemented a plan, how do we know it would have the desired results? (We don't, and coercively imposed social planning often has substantial perverse consequences.) There are also institutional objections to the myth. Why would the State act for the common good rather than the interests of the rulers. The rulers make the decisions, and have incentives like all men. Public choice theory is a more reliable preditor of political behavior than naive faith in Pollyanna pluralism. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 12) But democracy is rule of the people. This is a myth. Look at the people who make up government. Government is run by the rich. Rich people are by and large the ones running for office. Rich people by and large fund their campaigns. Heads of office appointed by elected officials are primarily friends of that politician. This is especially true of Presidential cabinet positions. Policy for elected politicians is largely geared towards what Special interest groups. Democractic government isn't rule of the people, it's rule of the elite and powerful. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Now how is it exactly that ACism will solve problems of road and transportation networks? Or public safety? Or national defense? [/ QUOTE ] A) Read the faq. B) Ask yourelf two questions 1) How is it done now? 2) Why can't it be done without a state, through volntary means?
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