Killing off the little guy (this time it's internet radio)

[Brainwalter]

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Giving the CD to Joe is taking their product and giving it away for free, just like buying a car from a dealership making a replica of it and giving it to your girlfriend.

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[NeBlis]

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Not only does NeBlis not understand what economic scarcity means, he doesn't even understand what "demonstrate" means.


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ok demonstrate for me why it is not scarce so that I may better understand your yodaesque flair for explanation. Teach me how to frame my thoughts better.

[Brainwalter]

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Not only does NeBlis not understand what economic scarcity means, he doesn't even understand what "demonstrate" means.


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ok demonstrate for me why it is not scarce

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If I make a copy of it, you haven't lost your original copy.

[BCPVP]

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Not only does NeBlis not understand what economic scarcity means, he doesn't even understand what "demonstrate" means.


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ok demonstrate for me why it is not scarce so that I may better understand your yodaesque flair for explanation. Teach me how to frame my thoughts better.

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I've done that already. YOU were asked to demonstrate how an idea is scarce. I won't hold my breath though.

[MelchyBeau]

I am confused on this, It seems that in ACLand copyrights are nonexistant, but what about patents? It seems BCPVP made a distinction between these two, do you consider these to be protected in an AC society, and if so how?

If not, doesn't that decrease the drive for a company to put money into R&D, thus leading to less innovation?

[pvn]

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Please demonstrate why "oops I did it again" is scarce. When you mentioned it to me, did you instantly forget about it?

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How could I forget that sexy little tart in her school girl outfit?

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There you go, then. You propogated the idea to me without depriving yourself of it. There was only one person thinking of it, now there are suddenly two. And if I tell someone, there will be three. On the other hand, if you have a rock, and you give it to me, then I give it to Joe, there's still only one rock.

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She's the one who "did it again" not you she and her distribution company sold you the listening rights to her scarce idea. If you violate that contract by selling her idea that is theft and wrong. If you only listen to the music while rubbing one out thinking of school girls then that's fine.

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This is a voluntary agreement between two parties. This has nothing to do with scarcity.

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What difference does it make if it's for personal use or not? Whether I give the copy to Joe or throw it in the trash makes no difference. Britney is not deprived of time in one case, and not in the other.


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Because the defacto contract of purchasing a piece of music or art includes the assumption on the part of the seller that you are only consuming the product and not marketing it. I am sure that they would charge you a different amount if you wanted to copy and distribute the product.

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Again, you're discussing particulars of a contract. These particulars could be modified in many different ways regardless of the scarcity (or non-scarcity) of the idea in question.

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Giving the CD to Joe is taking their product and giving it away for free, just like taking a car from a dealership and giving it to your girlfriend. Throwing it in the trash harms no one but you for wasting the CD so who cares.

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When I buy a book, I can give that away for free. The book itself IS scarce, because I can't give the book away and keep it for myself. However, the ideas in the book are not scarce - I can copy those and keep the original. I can give that copy away for free. The original author *may* not want me to, however. He may prefer to control the distribution of those ideas. He might therefore draw up a contract that he would ask me to agree to before agreeing to transfer the ideas to me. Violating that contract could create damages for one of the parties in the contract (depending on the violation, and the terms of the contract, of course). But this has nothing to do with inherent properties of the item in question (and scarcity is such an inherent property).

So, again. I would like to see an example of a scarce idea. Not an idea that someone thinks is important and only shares with people under certain circumstances.

[NeBlis]

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Not only does NeBlis not understand what economic scarcity means, he doesn't even understand what "demonstrate" means.


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OK demonstrate for me why it is not scarce so that I may better understand your yodaesque flair for explanation. Teach me how to frame my thoughts better.

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I've done that already. YOU were asked to demonstrate how an idea is scarce. I won't hold my breath though.

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OK YODA I'm gonna try again.

From your Scarcity WIKI link.

"Goods and services are scarce because of the limited availability of resources (the factors of production) along with the limits on our technology and skillful people relative to the total amount desired. If somehow people desired nothing, there would be no scarcity. If resources were great enough to produce more than anyone desired, there would also be no scarcity"


The limited availability of resources inherent in IP goes like this.

All thinking being have ideas so in this way ideas are not unique. Some ideas are better or more desirable than others. Not everyone has better or more desirable ideas. This fact alone makes good ideas more scarce than generic ideas.

Add to this the way the market treats ideas.

1. I have an idea that is unique.
2. I wish to market that idea.
3. I sell you the use of my idea for an agreed upon price and use.

[ note that: Ideas aren't milk or cars so I have to sell it in a different way than milk or cars.]

Lets use my photography business rather than CDs I might make this easier. Say that Amce Widget Co. wants to make a new ad showcasing a unique widget. They contract with an ad agency to come up with a unique idea. The ad agency contracts with me to create a unique interpretation of this unique idea. ( note that although many people could supply this interpretation they will all be different or unique) The widget belongs to Acme, the ad idea belongs to the agency and the photo idea belongs to me. In the end we all contract with each other to make one whole. Now say that the XYZ Widget Co. Likes this idea and copys it a unique idea that did not exist in that form before has now been stolen along with the time and resources along with the creativity and ingenuity that create such scarce ideas.

[pvn]

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I am confused on this, It seems that in ACLand copyrights are nonexistant, but what about patents? It seems BCPVP made a distinction between these two, do you consider these to be protected in an AC society, and if so how?

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It's the otherway around. Copyrights could easily exist, because they are voluntary agreements. Patents are not. Patents place restrictions on people involuntarily. The restrict independent effort.

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If not, doesn't that decrease the drive for a company to put money into R&D, thus leading to less innovation?

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How so?

* Newton could not patent the Calculus. Leibnitz developed it independently at the same time. Newton knew this was a possibility, and went forward anyway.

* If I could get a patent on mowing yards, I would invest a lot in mowing yards, but since I can't that patent, I invest less in it. But people still mow yards, even though they have to compete with other yard-mowers.

* The forumla for Coke isn't patented. It's a trade secret. It's up to Coke to *keep* that a secret. Should I be pre-emtively prevented from combining sugar and water in certain proportions in my kitchen?

What you probably want to worry about is people "ripping off" your work, not people who are doing their own thing and just happen to come up with the same thing as you. In that case, a voluntary agreement (eg "I will sell you this pill if you agree that you will not engage in activities X, Y or Z") is *exactly* what you're looking for.

[BCPVP]

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I am confused on this, It seems that in ACLand copyrights are nonexistant, but what about patents?

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You are confused. You've got it backwards. Copyrights could exist because you could have contracts to not copy/distribute/whatever at purchase. With a patent, I cannot sell my invention if you've created the same thing (or close enough to it) before me, even if I've never had a contract with you or had even heard of your invention.

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If not, doesn't that decrease the drive for a company to put money into R&D, thus leading to less innovation?

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On this point, I think some companies would weigh their ability to produce the product in enough of a quantity and quality to beat out possible copycats. Also, there is usually an advantage to being first to the marketplace with a good product. Individual inventors could sell their ideas to larger manufacturers or try and produce the product themselves. They may not be compensated as well as they are now, but there's no non-arbitrary amount that inventors should be compensated. I'm confident that people will still continue to invent things as evidenced by the history of inventions that have occurred without IP laws.

[NeBlis]

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So, again. I would like to see an example of a scarce idea. Not an idea that someone thinks is important and only shares with people under certain circumstances.


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2+2 is a unique scarce idea. forums and poker are not.

I'm saying that ideas can be scare by virtue of their importance. How we choose to share those ideas and the relative worth of those ideas is all tied into the uniqueness of the idea itself.
I'm pretty sure I agree with your lager point (and mine to) that this boils down to a contract situation. I am arguing that this contract is inherent in the creation process and is what allows us to use ideas as commodities.