Staying Away from Quality players

[ill rich]

it dosen't matter much so long as you generally play tigher with them IN the pot with you and looser AGAINST them. as a simple example if you, a good player (who knows you're good), and a bad player are in a pot and rags flop and the good player bets you shouldn't chase him down without a good draw or quality hand such as a big pocket pair. if you chase him down with AK, AQ that's probably a bad play, because the bad player will call and the good player knows this consequently he has some sort of hand. tend to fold. however if it's just you can him and rags flop you can probably stick with him with a pair or even AK, AQ high a good portion of the time (not ALWAYS) because he would figure you'll fold most of the time (which you WILL do but you'll have to stop him from attempting these bluffs and semi-bluffs too often)

they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

against a good player i would tend to semi-bluff more, bluff very infrequently, and bet for value with only my stronger hands. also i would fold in marginal situations but recognize when a "marginal situation" against a bad player, might actually be a decent situation against a thinking player.

generally if they're equal skill level you'll break-even against them but they do reduce your hourly rate by sharing the profits of the lower quality players mistakes.

as long as there are enough players in the game who you're better than, or the bad players are so bad they're making a ton of mistakes - just stick around a play.

[Harv72b]

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they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

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This is very true.

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as a simple example if you, a good player (who knows you're good), and a bad player are in a pot and rags flop and the good player bets you shouldn't chase him down without a good draw or quality hand such as a big pocket pair. if you chase him down with AK, AQ that's probably a bad play, because the bad player will call and the good player knows this consequently he has some sort of hand.

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Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP. If they both call, I have a pretty easy check/fold on the turn (assuming I don't improve and the pot isn't laying correct odds to see a river).

I know I said above that you should often fold a hand like AQ vs. a good player's EP raise, but when we're talking about that same player raising from later in the order, and especially after a bad player has entered the pot, that's a 3betting hand. You often have a better hand than he does, and you want him to know that so he can get out of the way & let you take the donk's money that time.

Understand, in most situations you're better off just avoiding playing a pot against these players unless/until you feel you can hold your own against them postflop. But, when you do have a hand good enough to enter a pot against them, you should be doing so very aggressively and keeping up the aggression until he gives you a reason to do otherwise.

[JJNJustin]

Even quality players have weaknesses. Depending on what their weaknesses are, you can exploit them.

Calling stations: call down too much with hands that cant win because of lack of trust, awareness, and handreading skills. Will rarely raise due to lack of certainty. Strategy: B/F all day, never bluff, play solid cards, i.e. straight forward

Emotional players: these guys betting patterns revolve around how their running and the result of the hand. You have to sort of forget poker and be aware of what is going thru their mind. These players tilt like crazy and try hopeless bluff. Strategy: Let them bet away their money, and call them, even with some marginal holdings. Get into raising wars with them when they are tilting. They will spew away tons of money.

Notice these two types are equally bad players, and the strategy for beating them is quite different. Often you cant value bet someone who missed, but who will bet your hand for you if you play like a little girl. You cant induce bluffs out of a calling station who will never bet unless they have an extremely good hand.

Good players: there are many good players I know, but many of them have huge leaks and weaknesses. Figure out what their weaknesses are and take advantage of those. Figure out when they are playing less then optimal.

But in general, if you see a table full of quality players, and another game is available, you should choose the other game. That's just common sense.

-J

[bernie]

Basically you just have to look out for them and be careful in HU or 3 way spots. In multiway pots, they're pretty predictable as with all the other players in the pot, they can't really get that creative and have to play much more str8 forward.

One way to learn how to play them is learn how they play. Recognize it. Then find a counter for what they're doing. To me, that's one of the funner parts of the game.

b

[HoneyBadger]

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they won't bluff a man who wont fold, but they will value bet. they might try to move you off a hand however (if they recognize you're good).

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That is such an awesome move, to be value raising the LAG on the turn, thereby bluffing the TAG out of the pot. For example you have AQ highcards, 3 people to flop, LAG bets, you call, TAG calls. You're pretty sure he has a medium pair now, or he wouldn't overcall you (!). Turn is a king that misses you completely, LAG instant bets his crap, you raise. TAG thinks and folds, little choice he has. LAG calls, check the river, you check behind and win the pot ace high. Awesome.

[ill rich]

harv,

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP.

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i think that is a bad play. ace-high is usually no good here, and you need to improve by the river because the loose guy will chase you down and if the good player has something, you will be charged the maxiumum. i think reverse implied odds say fold. i'm assuming a typical game where a guy will go to the river with any draw, or stay to the showdown with any pair. a bet there is throwing away money.

[ill rich]

[ QUOTE ]

That is such an awesome move, to be value raising the LAG on the turn, thereby bluffing the TAG out of the pot. For example you have AQ highcards, 3 people to flop, LAG bets, you call, TAG calls. You're pretty sure he has a medium pair now, or he wouldn't overcall you (!). Turn is a king that misses you completely, LAG instant bets his crap, you raise. TAG thinks and folds, little choice he has. LAG calls, check the river, you check behind and win the pot ace high. Awesome.

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that sounds like a nice theoretical fancy play, but in the real world that's a big loser. you might be able to score with that and pat yourself on the back, but in the long run you'de make more money not attempting that.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
harv,

[ QUOTE ]
Which is why that is untrue. If I'm in a pot vs. a terrible loose/passive and an ABC TAG, I'm betting that flop 100% of the time with AJ, AT, even KQ. Not because I believe my hand is better than the TAG's (assuming he coldcalled, which by the way, is not a mark of a good TAG), but because I believe I have a value bet vs. the bad player and because I believe this will cause the ABC TAG to fold a better, non-paired hand, sometimes even a small PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that is a bad play. ace-high is usually no good here, and you need to improve by the river because the loose guy will chase you down and if the good player has something, you will be charged the maxiumum. i think reverse implied odds say fold. i'm assuming a typical game where a guy will go to the river with any draw, or stay to the showdown with any pair. a bet there is throwing away money.

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Preflop: Loose/terrible limps, I raise with KJo, so-so TAG coldcalls on the button, folded around to limper who calls.

Flop: T74 rainbow. Limper checks, I bet, so-so TAG thinks it over for a few seconds and folds his AQo/55/whatever he's decided is no good anymore, limper calls.

Turn: A of purple horseshoes. Limper checks, I bet, limper folds.

Alternately:

Turn: another 7. Limper checks and I check through. River is a 2, checked through and MHIG vs. limper's J9o.

You get the idea...and that's just with K high. With ace high, even when I'm called on the flop and, against some players, on the turn, my hand is often good vs. the loose/terrible player. And even when it isn't, I can usually win by spiking a pair on the turn or river.

If the tight player calls or raises the flop bet, as I said, I'm out on the turn UI...because I know he's got a better hand than I do.

[ill rich]

with the King Jack offsuit against a random hand you're not very strong with that T-7-4 flop. sure, you MIGHT have the best hand, but if your opponent has so much as a pair, you're a 4-1 underdog. you being unpaired gives a a lowly gutshot 10 outs. i think the bet there is out of line. if he's checking to you, you should probably check along and hope to show it down or catch a pair.

consider the possible holdings for the opponents:

1. a pair [30%] he is 73%
2. a gutshot [20%] he is 38%
3. nothing [15%] he is 23%
4. ace-high [20%] he is 72%
5. a dominatED hand [10%] he is 15%
6. a dominatING hand [5%] he is 85%

now we just multiply the odds to get the chances he'll win at showdown overall: (.219) + (.076) + (.0345) + (.144) + (.015) + (.425) = .9135

multiply that by 100 to get a percentage: 91.35%

if he's loose enough to call to the showdown, given that range, overall he should beat you 91.35% of the time. you're throwing money away!

if you had a pair of Kings or Jacks, you're equity would skyrocket and he wouldn't be close but YOU have NOTHING!

that's an extremely thin value bet and you DON'T want him to call.

[Cactus Jack]

nh, rich

Thanks for the math.