The official NETELLER thread. (First 40 days.) #1 of 2.

[Andy Beal]

http://cardplayer.com/poker_news/article/8333

[RoundGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
so is it basically a universally known fact that any money frozen in neteller right now is gone forever?

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, no.

[Iceman37]

Neteller has made it patently obvious that they're not willing to spend any of the gazillions of dollars they've made from US customers to defend themselves (or us) in any court. Slap the founders in irons and they roll over faster than Jenna Jameson...it's embarassing how tiny their cajones really are. Fact is we NEEDED this to happen--but we needed a company to stand up and fight the thing, not roll over and take it (while pocketing all the money they've already made doing their business with the US market).

As far as what records are being produced--you know EXACTLY what records are being produced...records of every US customer (you're kidding yourselves if you think this isn't the case). And when the time is right, if we haven't done something about it before then, those records will be used against us.

And whose fault will it be? Will it be Neteller's fault? The fault of the Department of Justice?

Nope...it will be our fault. We've known this was coming. We have all known that what we've been doing is technically illegal...and we've all known that the government (all government, but especially the US Politburo) doesn't give a rat's ass about anything EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR TAX DOLLARS. That they will go after like so many hungry wolves on an overturned steak truck. About the only thing the US government likes more than tax dollars is INFORMATION--especially information on it's citizens.

So it's time to wake up and smell the coffee--in multiple areas. It's Neteller's fault because they won't fight, this is true...but it's our fault because WE elect these guys, WE allow them to get crap like the Patriot Act through, WE fail to defend our liberties, WE fail to limit government and WE fail to put up a fight of our own when our personal liberties are threatened by an oversized, overzealous government that has become exactly the thing our "founding fathers" were so adamant about being rid of in the first place.

Amerika the beautiful--that's what we've become. We've allowed it to happen. It's our fault. The question is, what are we REALLY willing to do about it, besides piss and moan on a meaningless forum that will have no real effect besides making us feel better for a few minutes?

Is there anyone here who has the capability to organize a real effort toward legislation that recognizes poker as a game of skill (the first salvo in a long-term, ongoing battle to reclaim our personal freedoms)? Is there anyone here who has the capability of crafting a well-organized, well-protected alternative to the Neteller model (and if you think ePassporte is it, you're bloomin' nuts--they're next to fall, you can count on that)? I'd love to say I'm the guy to make something real happen...but I'm not. I've got too many alternative (though related) irons in the fire right now to make any meaningful contribution besides moral support and adding my name to the list. But is there anyone out there who IS willing and able?

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as what records are being produced--you know EXACTLY what records are being produced...records of every US customer (you're kidding yourselves if you think this isn't the case). And when the time is right, if we haven't done something about it before then, those records will be used against us.


[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't see why everyone is so alarmed here. We've been warning people on these boards forever to pay your damn taxes, its not worth it. If you paid your taxes, you have nothing to worry about. NOTHING. Hell, evne if you didn't pay your taxes, just go ahead and pay them now, with penalties, and you'll probably be fine.

[JRussell]

[ QUOTE ]
We have all known that what we've been doing is technically illegal...and we've all known that the government (all government, but especially the US Politburo) doesn't give a rat's ass about anything EXCEPT WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR TAX DOLLARS. That they will go after like so many hungry wolves on an overturned steak truck. About the only thing the US government likes more than tax dollars is INFORMATION--especially information on it's citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this was the case all they had to do was legalize it and enjoy the huge tax revenues. I think guys like Frist are much more concerned with pushing their religious morals on everyone else.

[JPFisher55]

I agree with Iceman except for Epassporte. Neteller serviced sports betting sites, but Epassporte apparently does not. This will make a big difference.
A federal case involving a company name Intracash Financial Services held that a company facilitating money transfers to foreign sportsbetting company violated US law if it had customers in a state that did not allow sports betting. The state was New Jersey. The only difference was that the company based on the Isle of Man had a New Jersey subsidiary and Neteller does not.

[newber]

this is just my personal opinion

judging by the way neteller ignores our questions and dodges answering anything useful such as a realistic time estimate for getting our money back

i suspect if we EVER get our money back. it will be when the USDOJ has finished prosecuting those 2 company founders.
judging by how long court cases can drag on, i say at the very minimum 6 months - 18 months.

this incident has irreparably destroyed my confidence in financial institutions in general. thankfully i only have $400 frozen, but the audacity of this unexpected bullshyt is just too unreal.

[Iceman37]

My personal reasons for being alarmed have to do with (yet another) intrusion into my personal, private, none-of-their-damned-business life. The vast majority of people who play online poker lose money, so personal taxation won't be as much of a concern--yet. My biggest concern is that people take a complacent attitude while the government continues to find every method to take money out of our pocket, curtail our activities and essentially prevent us from attaining the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness we've been taught that we deserve and are guaranteed. The document doesn't read "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness so long as the Government feels its appropriate for us and so long as they can make some scratch on it".

My concern is that the US Government is increasingly cavalier with our personal liberties, and as a society we seem remarkably cavalier about allowing them to be so!

[mo42nyy]

Todays government in now way resembles the govt that we had when this country was founded.This politician wipe their ass with the Constitution on a regular basis.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
My concern is that the US Government is increasingly cavalier with our personal liberties, and as a society we seem remarkably cavalier about allowing them to be so!

[/ QUOTE ]

We live in fear these days, let us be.