Peyton Manning, Greatest QB of all time?

[Thremp]

Assani,

Did you post that in their OOT or SSNL?

[Assani Fisher]

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Assani,

Did you post that in their OOT or SSNL?

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Their OOT is called the FFA(free for all). That thread was posted in their Shark Pool, which is the main football board. And I didn't post it...someone else did.

Unlike this place which has a ton of forums, they only have two main ones: SP and FFA. They have a few other really small ones that are rarely used.

[jalapenoguy]

you say that fantasy football has ruined peoples view of football players, ie, manning is overrated because stats don't matter. why do you value so highly the opinions of the best fantasy site on the net as you call it?

can you list your qualities of a great quarterback? cause i can think of many, and peyton is better than brady in pretty much all of them.
reading defenses
throwing accuracy
arm strength
film study
footwork
decision making
mentality (not sure how to word this, basically not getting flustered, and yes i think brady is better here.)

im sure there are more but those are the obvious attributes.

i wouldn't think you were trolling if you just said brady was better. when you say that brady is much better than manning is where you seperate from logic and reality.

[CharlieDontSurf]

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I don't know how Montana compares to Marino or Peyton or Brady, I haven't seen either of them play and don't have enough information to come to a reasonable conclusion. However I would assume like Brady, Montana is overrated because your team winning a championship =! you individually winning a championship.

For a third year QB coming off a torn ACL Palmer's year was incredible. He is entering his peak and getting physically better so except next year to be a big improvement, which is saying a lot for a pro bowl QB.

I wish someone created a "What-If Machine" so I could make tons of money betting against CDS.

LOL @ Duracell grouping Rivers, Hasselbeck, Pennington and Favre together.

Part of the main reason the Colts D was so good last year was they would get out to huge leads forcing teams to pass all game long. The pass rushers of the Colts would rush the QB all game long and the cover two defense is designed to stop the pass.

Brandon Stokley went from a 1000 yard receiver to a guy getting benched in favour of Aaron Morehead.

As James282 said Manning and Palmer and etc. make everyone else better as well, look at Joseph Addai and Edgerrin James, look at the Colts great pass protection which never gives up sacks, a lot of this is due to Peyton.

T.J Houshmanzadeh went from a guy getting no playing time to a very good 2nd reciever in 2004 do you think he suddenly improved or do you think Carson made him improve?

Assani,
Where would you rank Lonnie Smith all time among all baseball players?

Edit: Just realized Stokley got injured.

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Housh's catches doubled almost every year, he was injured in 03, since his rookie year in 2001..except in 2005 they stayed about the same as in 2004. Carson isn't the reason Housh became a stud #2...he's certainly part of it but if another decent QB took his place that system would still work.

yeah yeah I know when Stokley has a great season it is all because of Peyton and him being just so awesome. Like the OC has nothing to do with it, the WR coach, the fact that they play in a dome, the fact they had no defense, the fact that he has two studs on opposite sides of him at WR, the fact they have a two solid TE, the fact that Peyton has tons of time cuz his o-line is solid, the fac they had a stud RB in Edge.

Yep Stokley owes that 1000 yard season all to Peyton's greatness.

Your telling me if John Kitna was the QB for Cinni...Housh would have never developed into a solid #2 WR and would have been eventually cut?

Holy [censored]...Mike Furrey went from a guy walking down the street to a solid ,almost 100 catch, #2 WR...
[censored] John Kitna is awesome...GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME??????

Ok so the new official list...

1. Peyton
2. Palmer
3. Kitna


Like I've said before Peyton is a awesome QB but he lucked out in getting great coaches, great players, a great system, a solid GM, etc etc.

If he is drafted by a [censored] team or team with a crappy GM...he becomes just a good QB. So his greatness, which is thought of mainly because of his stats, isn't all on him...just like Brady's/Montana's rings aren't either.

As of right now I agree with this top 4
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...rdpress/?p=139

Young
Marino
Montana
Manning

By the time Manning ends his career he is easily #1.

[battschr]

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Also Brady isn't right now and has never been the second best QB in the NFL.

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if the NFL exploded and the 32 NFL GM's got to pick a player to start their franchise for next year (or the next 3 years), I think it would go something like this:

21 of them would take Manning #1
7 of them would take Brady #1
3 would take some other QB #1
Matt Millen would take Reggie Wayne

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That doesn't change the fact that Brady has never been the second best QB in the NFL.

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it doesn't change the fact that you don't think he's 2nd best, but I'll take 32 NFL GM's player evaluation skills over yours.

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Football Outsiders agrees with me .

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I wonder why those guys don't run NFL teams. seems like that would be better than running fo.com.

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Was Ryan Leaf the second-best player in the 1998 draft? After all, several GMs thought he was.

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About half of them thought that, the other half thought he was #1.

[Needle77]

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can you list your qualities of a great quarterback? cause i can think of many, and peyton is better than brady in pretty much all of them.
reading defenses
throwing accuracy - ok
arm strength - ok
film study
footwork - maybe
decision making
mentality throw this [censored] out


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Dude, wtf???? You can not write something like this and actually believe it. You have no idea if Manning is "better at film study." You can assume, but there is no way of knowing. We hear that Manning spends countless hours looking at film, fine, but that doesn't necessarily make him better. Oh and BTW, film study is usually done with the QB coach who is sitting their analyzing as well.

Decision making??? Are we in the film rooms after the games? Do we know if it was Brady or Manning that made the bad pass or if it WR ran a bad route. We don't. There are the obvious ones, like bad interceptions, but other than that we just don't know.

Mentality? Get that [censored] out of there please. If anything it's a dead tie.

And on your footwork comment, every QB has different footwork. If you mean pocket awareness, speed, agility, ect. or all three it would still be about a tie. It would be to close imho to actually hand that "category" to one or the other.

Your fine to say arm strength and throwing accuracy...I guess. I don't know if they are entirely true but I'll give you those, as I'm sure Manning would "win those categories."

[Pudge714]

CDS,
Did Tom Brady just turn Reche Caldwell and Deion Branch into good WR's? Yes other factors came into play, but other factors made Reche Caldwell improve as well.

Assani,
If you put a poll in a HSNL hand and got all of 2p2 to vote on it and 80% of people said fold and Jman, KKF, Boosted, durrrr, etc. etc. all said call. Do you think that they should fold because 80% of the people said fold. Again your logic really suffers because you are assuming that a random Pat's fan's opinion is just as valuable as whomever the most knowledgeable football mind on the site is.

[Kneel B4 Zod]

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Yes other factors came into play, but other factors made Reche Caldwell improve as well.

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but which other factors were these? he was already playing with a good QB in Drew Brees, right?

and he wasn't sitting behind other great WR's in San Diego.

check out
David Patten before and after he played with Brady.

or David Givens (he was hurt for 11 games this year, but look at his per game numbers). we'll see if he ever catches 56/59 balls again.

Jabar Gaffney was out of football this year, joined the Patriots midseason, and in the playoffs caught 21 passes for 244 yards and 2 touchdown. he was the #2 WR on the team by the playoffs, and was on the street midway through the season!

I don't think any top QB has played with a bigger group of mediocre WR's than Brady.

[Thremp]

All,


Why would Manning improve as an all-time QB between now and the end of his career?

Do you weight this as a mixture of demonstrated ability plus a compilation of career stats?

Will he get better over the next few years?

[PokerFink]

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Why would Manning improve as an all-time QB between now and the end of his career?

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Greatness is about sustained success over many years. Manning has been sensational for several years now, but his complete body of work (career) is still behind guys like Marino, Montana, etc. because he hasn't played as long.

If he sustains this excellence for several more years, he will end up being #1.