Interpretation and Religon

[kurto]

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You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

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That's not proof. It's part of my personal testimony, but it's certainly not proof. Do you think I was trying to persuade you of something?

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You contradicted my statements (and in many threads you contradict others) then offer your testimoney as a 'counter' to what they've posted. Most people, I believe, would think your posts (counter someone else then offer your testimony) are making an argument for your Faith.

My head spins sometimes trying to make heads or tails of your reponses.

I didn't realize you didn't converse with the same rules as other people. Meaning when you contradict someone then list your reasons for believing what you do... we interpret that to mean you are attempting to offer evidence or proof to back your position. Since you seem to be suggesting that's not the case, it would appear you follow your own 'rules' of having a conversation. In which case I doubt anyone can follow your meaning.

sigh.

[txag007]

I did not say my feeling was my proof. Are we reading the same thread?

[kurto]

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You have offered proof. Things like "I've read the Bible" or "I've experienced God."

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That's not proof. It's part of my personal testimony, but it's certainly not proof. Do you think I was trying to persuade you of something?

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didnt you say your feeling was your proof. did your feelings disappear.

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I'm 99% certain he has previously listed his feelings as proof. It would not be unlike him to now pretend otherwise. He has argued in the past that Faith is more important then reason. So its completely futile and a waste of time to try to reason with him.

For that matter I'm not sure why he keeps interjecting himself into people's debates when, if he's called on something he's posted, he denies that its meant to be proof of anything or that he's trying to persuade someone of something.

He makes me miss Bunny.

[txag007]

Relax, Kurto. Take a deep breath.

I'm just telling you why I believe as I do. When you finally believe - and you will eventually - it won't be because you were persuaded by me or anyone else. If you come to God before you die, it will be because you chose to listen to what God was saying to you.

[kurto]

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Relax, Kurto. Take a deep breath.

I'm just telling you why I believe as I do. When you finally believe - and you will eventually - it won't be because you were persuaded by me or anyone else. If you come to God before you die, it will be because you chose to listen to what God was saying to you.

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Take a breath and listen to what others are saying.

The reasons you list for believing what YOU believe are the same reasons that OTHERS who believe differently then you list for believing.

When you believe that there is no God, and you will eventually believe, it will be because you decided to listen to reason and ignored the superstitious ramblings of ancient man.

[bunny]

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I'm sure txag007 will accept that there are some deluded christians, though not deluded about their experience with God. I am curious how he would suggest someone assure themselves this belief is not the result of a mental aberration.


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John 10:

1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
11"I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.


27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30"I and the Father are one."


37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."


41Many came to Him and were saying, "While John performed no sign, yet everything John said about this man was true."
42Many believed in Him there.

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LOL [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] That clears it up. Clearly the Christians experience God and aren't deluded while people of other Faiths are.

That was so simple.

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I wonder if NotReady's point was that relying on personal experience is always going to leave one with this nagging doubt. I have always argued that relying on such experiences is the only rational grounds for theism, given it relies on some evidence, however slender.

In contrast, NotReady adopts the inerrancy and divine authorship of the bible as an axiom. Perhaps this route provides some assurance (to one who accepts this axiom) that they are not deluded.

[kurto]

Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[bunny]

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When you choose to believe, you'll know.

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This seems to be saying that if you find yourself believing in God, but accept a possibility you may be wrong - you dont really believe. Is that what you mean?

Also, do you think it is possible to choose to believe something? If I consider a question which I dont know the answer to - there is no way I can "make" myself believe an answer is one way or the other. I can look into it, mull it over, eventually I discover I believe something. Are you able to choose to believe on any topic? Or is it only God that you make that choice with?

[bunny]

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Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Internally consistent though - NotReady has acknowledged his belief is circular in the past. He claims (rightly imo) that any basis for human knowledge is circular. If true, this would mean circularity is not in itself grounds to label his beliefs irrational.

I was speculating that his post may have more been an attack on the "personal experience" form of theism which I have defended. It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

EDIT: In other words it was directed at a believer, not an unbeliever and as such the use of the bible seems more relevant.

[kurto]

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Using the Bible to prove that your beliefs in the God of the Bible is not a delusion is... delusional.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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Internally consistent though - NotReady has acknowledged his belief is circular in the past. He claims (rightly imo) that any basis for human knowledge is circular. If true, this would mean circularity is not in itself grounds to label his beliefs irrational.

I was speculating that his post may have more been an attack on the "personal experience" form of theism which I have defended. It seems his point was that what's "in my heart" is never going to be enough, I need God/Jesus as revealed through the bible to have true belief.

EDIT: In other words it was directed at a believer, not an unbeliever and as such the use of the bible seems more relevant.

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I can't agree with you on the circular beliefs part. If I start with a false premise and then use my false premise to assert my premise... I'm 'delusional.'

"I believe God is real.
I believe it because the Bible says so.
I believe the Bible because it is written by God."

This is complete nonsense in terms of being a logical proof.
And it certainly does not distinguish itself from other religions.

"I believe the Muslim Faith is correct.
I believe in God.
I believe because the Qu'ran says its true.
The writer of the Qu'ran was writing what God told him."

There is no reason why the person quoting the Bible has any more credibility then someone quoting the Qu'ran or "the Night Before Christmas" as proof that Santa exists.