help me become a better arguer/negotiater

[XXXNoahXXX]

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The best negotiating tactic is to pretend like you're caving when you are really getting what you want.

Lame basic example:

You want 3, he wants 1.

Him: I want 1.

You: I want 10.

Him: you're crazy! bye

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fyp

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obviously this wasn't a well thought out example. I just was trying to give a sense of the back and forth and deceit that must be used.

a lot of people approach a negotiation for a car, etc. and aren't aggressive enough. If the car is marked for $10,000. It doesn't hurt to ask for $5,000. He may call you crazy, but who cares. He may call you crazy and then say $9500, which gets the ball rolling. If you go in there and say $9000, he may very well have sold it to you for $9k, but since you weren't aggressive enough you just set the floor at $9k and he knows you'll go higher.

[NLSoldier]

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(1) Always make the other person name the first number


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I was taught that number 1 is basically a myth and as long as you have a good grasp of your alternatives and such, you should be the one to name the first number as an anchoring point.

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Please go into more detail on this.

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OK, before you start negotiating, you should always know what your best alternative is, so that you have a very specific walkaway point. You can then set a target price/amount/whatever somewhere above your walkaway point. And you can make your first offer somewhere higher than that.

The reason its good to go first is because the first number that gets thrown out becomes the baseline for the rest of the negotiation. As you make concessions you can continue to point out how much you are giving up by reminding them of your initial offer.

Also, lets say there is a very wide area of possible agreement. For example, you really want 70 but would be willing to accept as low as 30, and the other guy only wants to give you 20 but could go as high as 60. If you make the first offer of like 100, he is probably think you have a walkaway point of like 50-70 and will be like wow I am going to be lucky just to get this down to 60 which is my maximimum. And he will probably counter with something like 40-50 which is already above your walkaway point of 30.

Not sure how much that example helps bc obv its all arbitrary numbers but basically making the first offer is good because people are naturally somewhat adverse to controversy and thus wont counter with an offer so low that they think it will offend you or cause you to walk away right away. And it will likely cause them to underestimate the size of the overlap between your walkaway point and theirs.

Just be careful not to make the openning offer so ridiculous that they will not take it seriously or will immediataly assume no deal will get done and walkaway.

[guids]

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Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

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Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

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Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

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The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

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I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

[Autocratic]

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Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

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Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

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The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

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I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

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Genuine arguing is simple. Know the topic and articulate your position well while demonstrating why the other position is less than ideal.

Appearing to have won an argument is entirely different. It involves bridging the gap between your positions and getting the other debater to agree to a sort of middle ground that you present, or deflecting arguments while pulling the argument into "friendly territory" - something tangentially related to the argument at hand that you are proficient with.

[gamblore99]

NLSoldier,
What you are saying is 100% congruent with what I have learned in class about psychology about baseline rates. However, the rare times I have tried that, people just look at me like I am crazy and don't want to even talk to me. Maybe because I am young? (21)

Another example is car shopping. I tried to get a bit of a deal, and threw out a number slightly less than what they were offering (was for a used car, in the range of 7-8k canadian). The guy said the prices were none negotiable, then started showing me cars for 10k.

[guids]

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NLSoldier,
What you are saying is 100% congruent with what I have learned in class about psychology about baseline rates. However, the rare times I have tried that, people just look at me like I am crazy and don't want to even talk to me. Maybe because I am young? (21)

Another example is car shopping. I tried to get a bit of a deal, and threw out a number slightly less than what they were offering (was for a used car, in the range of 7-8k canadian). The guy said the prices were none negotiable, then started showing me cars for 10k.

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At that point you say, "I dont even want to look at the 10k cars, Im taking my business to a lot that will work with the customer better than you guys, thanks for your time though." You wont get 4 steps away before the salesman changes his tune.


Edit: Car salesman ALWAYS try to deflect the talk away from the price of the car, you bring up the price, they wont answer, but will start telling you about the service, warranties, how low the mileage is etc, what you need to do is counter with something negative on each of these points.

you: will you guys take 8k?

salesmen: well, it comes with a 2 year warranty

you: well, the last place I looked at had pretty much the same car with a 3 year warranty, so id be willing to go down to 8k


Salesman: well it only has 40k miles etc

you: ya, thats the other issue, 40k miles is a little more mileage that I wanted to look at, I was hoping to get a c ar with 10 to 20k

etc

[Evan]

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Watch Thank You For Smoking. There's a pretty sweet scene where the main character teaches his son how to debate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed the key to winning an arguement is about making the arguement about something you know you can win, not about the actual issue... think about how chicks argue sometime.

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Im not understanding this? what do you mean, just argue the things you know you are right about? Chicks when tehy argue, usualyl make no sense, so Im a little confused.

[/ QUOTE ]
The basic idea of the scene is the main character is eating ice cream with his son and they're talking about what's better, chocolate or vanilla. The kid likes chocolate and the dad decides to teach him how to debate. The kid starts and proclaims his love for chocolate saying something like "chocolate is all i need!" The dad then takes a more moderate road saying that he believes people need variety blah blah blah. In short, he argues against chocolate being all people need rather than arguing for vanilla being the best. If you prove the other person wrong you can win by default.

Similar to political campaigning. Regardless of your stance on things, in a 2 candidate race, whoever can get closer to the middle in the voters minds will win.

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I dont consider that winning the argument, yes, if you are running for political office, thats the best way to go. But if chocolate is my favorite flavor, it is my opinion, of what I like. I like chocolate, it is the best flavor of all ice cream, just because everyone else doesnt necassarily think its the best, doesnt mean that Im not right in saying chocolate is my fav. The kid is arguing that chocolate is all HE needs, the dad is completely changing the argument, saying its not all EVERYONE needs, he isnt arguing the topic.

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Just watch the movie.

[juschuma]

Regarding who makes the 1st offer, it depends on what you are negotiating. For an item/service where the value can wildly vary depending on each person's motivation, you want the other party to set the 1st price. As an example, let's say you need a DJ at the last minute for a party you are throwing tonight. You might be willing to pay $1000 because you know it's last minute and are desperate, however, the DJ might have no work that night or might be new to the business and might do the job for $250. So, by letting him set the 1st price (and knowing info about him) you could save yourself tons of cash.

The other example is where there is a fairly well defined price range, such as buying or selling a video game that retails for $50. In this case, it's better that you set the price as it establishes a baseline to begin the negotiations from.

Most importantly is knowing information about your adversary (i.e. what are their motiviations). The few minutes that you spend talking before the negotations begin are the most critical and you should gently probe for information. You will be surprsised at how much valuable info they give up. Alternatively, be careful to disclose too much info about your own situation.

[udbrky]

1) Take a class on formal logic. It will help you learn how to make an argument.

2) Pick your arguments. If you're just looking to argue to argue, then it's not worth your time. Argue for a reason.

3) In an argument with someone you really care about, don't always have to be right. Compromise goes a long way in the long run, and if you care about them, it's the long run that matters.

4) Don't argue with idiots, or people with whom you can't change their minds.

5) Research topics you will or might argue regarding. It's hard to argue ignorance against knowledge. Make sure you're on the right side.

6) Be open-minded, you might be wrong.

[jester710]

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6) Be open-minded, you might be wrong.

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This is terrible advice, and I urge you to disregard it immediately.