I liked my chances preflop but I don't think i played this one well.

[steamboatin]

Absolute Poker
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) steamfish is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">steamfish raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">steamfish bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises</font>, steamfish calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (11BB, 3 players)
steamfish checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks.

Results:
Final pot: 11BB

Villians are 80.5% &amp; 59.7% VPIP

[BarbarianX]

I don't like the raise at all, not without a low posibility. You aint gonna get headsup anyway, it's doomed to ne 3 or 4-handed. You hope for a high flop, then you probably are very strong, it's better to keep BB in. Your position is bad too. I just call and hope for a nice flop. Now it's lot harder to let it go. As you played it after the flop was fine I think.

[PokerJans]

Call preflop

Check-fold flop

[morningstar]

it's still a good hand btf and your most favorable flops don't usually hit your opps that well so it's a good idea to make them pay btf when you know it's +ev...

...flop is evil and you can just ck-fold that (berely call), if you also sumtimes ck A2 with the nut flush draw and such..

...random crap has more equity on that flop and even if you have the best hand you don't know where you're are and u could easily get drawn out

[1MoreFish4U]

I like the raise preflop to try &amp; limit the number of players in the hand.

Betting the flop is the way to go -you can win the pot right there - esp with the A to the flush draw in your hand.

The turn raise can be any number of things against players that have gone that far.

He may have called the flop with a pair of Qs thinking he's playing for the high - and got lucky.

He may be trying to steal because a low hasn't hit.

He may have hit 2 pair &amp; a low draw &amp; figure he is ahead - but a paired board will give you the pot.

He may still be playing just for low &amp; trying to push out the 3rd player.

As Barbarian said - once you start to push AA - you do get committed to the hand on a board like this because a pair on the river would make no low possible &amp; could give you the best hand.

On the flip side, it could give someone a set and cost you more.

AA is the biggest moneymaker in LO8, but the hardest hand to get away from.

[franknagaijr]

As played, I don't get the turn bet at all. Your pre-flop and flop action represent either AAxx or A2xx, and the turn card clearly helps neither of those hands. Even worse, the Q doesn't help your actual hand. I suppose you can represent Ac Xc since nobody else has it, but that still seems like a losing play.

Check-fold on turn?

[Buzz]

Steamboatin - Interesting puzzle.

You raise before the flop from SB, getting BB to fold (which is good for you). Your raise should probably look like A2XY to your opponents (which is good for you since it is deceptive).

UTG+1 and MP1 bot call, which should have been expected. When people limp, they usually call a raise coming from from the small blind.

You bet the flop, which is of no use to you at all, except to continue to make your hand look like A2XY. UTG+1 and MP1 both call. <font color="blue">I wonder what they have.</font>

You bet the turn, which again is of no use to you, but probably is also of no use to your opponents. UTG+1 calls. MP1 raises! You call<font color="red">???</font>

UTG+1 also calls. <font color="blue">Now UTG+1's hand looks a lot like the A2XY you have been representing.</font>

The river enables low, yet you check. <font color="blue">Now it may look very much to UTG+1 as though you have finally gotten wise that he has the nut low too.</font>

UTG+1 checks. <font color="blue">UTG+1's betting makes sense if he has A2XY.</font>

MP+1 also checks. <font color="blue">What can MP+1 hold? It's a mystery to me. Does he have A2XY too? That seems too bizarre.

Too late for you to do anything if he does.</font><font color="red"> Meanwhile you already have over-played your aces.</font>

<font color="blue">Note that except for the first betting round you have been very much out of position on this hand. You had the right of first bluff, and you used the Hell out of it. But your opponents didn't budge. MP+1 even strangely raised the turn and then checked the river.

The play on the hand points out the disadvantage of being out of position. Also it illustrates overplaying aces.

Going back to your starting hand:
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is an excellent starting hand, except that it isn't very likely to connect well with the flop. I think you do well raising with this hand if you have a good chance of stealing the pot, or limiting the field. And you did get BB to fold by raising. But then you missed the flop entirely, and the flop was such that both your opponents probably did not miss it. With two low cards on the flop, and with two clubs, even though you have the ace of clubs, both of your opponents are not likely to have missed the flop too.

I would not raise from the small blind with this starting hand. It's hard to criticize your raise, though, because you didn't get any luck at all on the flop, turn, or river. The lack of luck certainly wasn't your fault. But that's sort of what happens to me when I try raising before the flop with hands like this. I subsequently just don't seem to have much luck at all.

This hand needs a flop with
• an ace or
• two or three hearts or
• a pair of queens or
• a pair of tens
to be very good for you. You also get something with two pairs or a straight or straight draw.

But this flop was none of these. And if you figure how often you get one of those flops, it really isn't very often.

So it's a fine starting hand, but I disagree with those who advise raising before the flop with it - at least in a game with the limits you were playing.

Raising before the flop just doesn't work well for me with these type hands. I like the starting hand a whole lot better if it has decent one low card to go with the ace.

I'm going to see the flop with this hand, but I'm not going to raise with it. (I realize you can find players better than I am who think you should). And the raise even worked out for you, in that you knocked BB out of the hand, slightly improving the chances of winning with unimproved aces or two pair, aces up.

With this starting hand in the small blind, I would generally complete the bet on the first betting round, and then check/fold on the second betting round when the hand missed a flop fit. I think anything else is over-playing the aces, a common mistake.

Buzz</font>

[1MoreFish4U]

All that Buzz says on this one makes sense from his standpoint.

From all I have heard &amp; read, live LO8 is much looser (more players seeing the flop, chasing, calling down - than online.

I gather that may be the case in the games Buzz usually plays.

If so, I might play the hand more like he recommends.

On the other hand, online we need to play more aggressively, and although everything went wrong for you on this hand (I assume - how did it end up?), I still think you took the right approach for the situation you were in, and it should be +EV for you long term online.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
All that Buzz says on this one makes sense from his standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]1MoreFish4U - In my humble opinion, it should make sense from your viewpoint too.

[ QUOTE ]
From all I have heard &amp; read, live LO8 is much looser (more players seeing the flop, chasing, calling down - than online.

[/ QUOTE ]I beleive that is generally true.

I like Hero’s hand as a starting hand. It’s not close to what I would consider a premium hand (because it lacks low possibilities), but I almost surely would see the flop with it. But then Hero has to play the hand properly after the flop. And he did not.

Overplaying aces in Omaha-8 is a common mistake. (I see it a lot). And that is what I would say Hero did here.

Hero has two opponents who see this flop and then continue after the flop. Try this: Take Hero’s cards out of a deck and then temporarily take all five of the board cards out of the deck also. Turn all of these face down so that you’re not making comparisons. Now pull two more hands out of the deck that would pay to see this flop and then continue after this flop.

Under these conditions, it’s damned hard to pull two hands out of the deck such that they both don’t have an ace. Indeed, I can do it easier for my generally somewhat looser B&amp;M games than you can for your tighter on-line games.

Maybe one opponent has A2XY and the other A34Y. (Or maybe they both have A2XY).

Let’s go back to the flop and simulate.
Hero has AcAdQsJd.
We'll give one opponent Ah2sXY,
and the other opponent As3c4cZ.

Hero gets crushed in this simulation, ending up dead last by far, suffering greatly for lack of a low, and getting out-scooped and usually beaten for high by the hand with the clubs.

Hero does well if both opponents have A2XY. And that is a possibility here. But they both have to have A2XY and no club draw or flopped set for Hero to do well. Not impossible, but not a high enough probability to play as though they both do have A2XY with no club draw and no flopped set.

I don’t play on-line - but I’m assuming Hero’s opponents are not total idiots.

Usually plays in Omaha-8 are semi-bluffs. But here, Hero pure bluffs the flop, perhaps thinking that nobody will play a club draw without the ace. (And that’s a possibility, but somebody can easily have some sort of low draw with a couple of clubs, be playing mainly for low, but hoping that the clubs will work out - or somebody could easily have a hand with a low draw plus a pair that could make a set, perhaps a set of queens on the turn).

O.K., so Hero takes a stab at the pot after the flop. Hard to criticize that. But then these guys both hang in there. Again, I’m assuming they’re not total idiots. In fact, I think they’re probably better, tighter players than I generally encounter.

But they both call the flop bet. At this point, if you didn’t think they both had an ace before the flop, it’s very, very difficult to put them on cards without an ace such that they would have paid to see the flop and then pay to continue beyond the flop.

Thus Hero’s aces are almost surely gone! I don’t play on-line, but I’d bet that Hero’s aces were gone! In that case, Hero has to hope the board pairs and nobody makes trips or better. Ugh.

You think Hero should bet this because he's on-line and more aggressive play is called for? Yikes! What he's doing is either over-playing aces or bluffing, pure and simple! (Which of the two it is depends on what Hero thinks the pair of aces is worth).

If I bet them, since I feel they're probably not worth much here, it would be a pure bluff. There’s room in all poker games, including Omaha-8, for bluffing. But this is simply not the place for it!

That's my opinion.

Buzz

[steamboatin]

[ QUOTE ]
I don’t play on-line - but I’m assuming Hero’s opponents are not total idiots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect assumption. If I remember correctly, the pot was scooped when one of them turned a set of tens. I don't play like this against reasonable opponents and I think I played wrong even against idiots.