hiv and shaundeeb are total scum

[Gildwulf]

Are people seriously attacking me for bragging about winning a match against HIV/ragging on HIV in a forum entitled 'Poker Beats, Brags, and Variance'?

lol

[fnord_too]

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If you want to call GW scummy for taking advantage of a degenerate, that is perfectly fine.

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This is a ridiculous argument. If a fish calls me out to play am I not supposed to play against him because I'm a better player?

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No, I am not saying that. I am saying if Yeti wants to argue you are scum for taking advantage of the kid, he can. That really has nothing to do with whether you were cheated and is a matter of personal oppinion. (You can see a lot of soul searching the psych forum by people who struggle with taking money off of people who can't control themselves).

The point was, justifying cheating because you think someone is scummy, or snotty, or arrogant, or some other adjative is a flawed rationalization.

For the record, I don't think you did anything wrong playing HIV in the matches, nor do I think it was scummy in any way. I cannot say someone who thinks other wise is wrong. I do think you were cheated. I can say someone who thinks otherwise is wrong, given that the consensus on what happened is correct.


Edit - And I know Yeti (cuz I read his post) doesn't think you are scummy for it. That really shoud have read "if one" rather than "if Yeti"

[felix83]

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nath, I've generally been entertained by your threads in the past, but you have showed yourself to be a good person of high moral fibre, and I respect the [censored] out of you for that. Even though I've never had any interaction with you before, I can already tell you I would trust you more than many people I know IRL.

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have you learned nothing from this thread?

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I'm not saying I'm shipping him my BR tomorrow for him to pay the king of Nigeria to get free $$$, what I meant was if I met nate tomorrow my immediate perception of him would be much higher than my usual skepticism based on what he's said. Like he's made clear, reputation goes a long way.

[MrTimCaum]

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Just kids being kids. I dont know why anybody would trust young douchebag poker pros to begin with, so who really cares...

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there are large numbers of 2p2ers and p5ers that I would trust with large sums of money. many of them in the 18-19 year old range. even a 17 year old in there with that group. i've always believed that the large majority of poker pros are some of the most honest and trustworthy people around. unfortunately, there are a handful of people in our field that ruin it for the rest of us.


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However, the following makes you seem not exactly scum-free yourself:

"Tongni would sit in the game using HIV's account and bait people into taking shots and absolutely destroy them. At the time, I didn't think anything of it, since I didn't think they'd specifically target nath and gildwulf."

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Look, I had just finished playing the most grueling day of poker in my life, 8-9 hours at an incredibly tough table on day 2 of the PCA, with Michael Binger and Scott Clements giving me absolute fits the entire day. I spent several hours working a very short stack only to make a run at the end of the day to get back to 2/3 average.

I was mentally and physically exhausted, just happy to be sitting there eating my bowl of soup and meat loaf entree with a stack to come back to in the morning. The moment I finished my meal, I excused myself from the table so I could go straight to bed. I tried to give gobbo some money for the meal but he refused it, saying he'd pick up the tab (they ended up playing credit card roulette and PrimeTime won, thanks for the meal sir).

I was so tired I really didn't consider the implications, and I certainly didn't think they'd lie straight to my face two nights later to get nath's phone number.


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im confused why shaundeeb is taking so much heat. just bc he knew and didnt notify nash/gild? was he also financially invested? was it his idea (mastermind)?

seems tongni and hiv acted as complete scum. deeb, however, is just guilty of inaction which is not quite as bad.

or was deeb friends with nath so this is a form of betrayal? if someone tried to scam me and a trusted friend sat by an watched i would proly be more angry at him.

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When I walked up to them after getting back the lobby after running into Jurollo and Co. shaun was very vocal about how this wasn't the plan and they weren't using tongni to try and [censored] nath out of money. Tongni didn't say a word, he just sat there.

A few moments later, I saw everyone get back off the elevator and they said they had both notified nath and Gildwulf about the plan, so all was good and we headed off the Senor Frogs. I get back 6-7 hours later and see the first thread. Look at shaun's posts in there and tell me what you think.

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theres nothing wrong with trusting people. its the people that take advantage of that trust that are the issue.

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ding

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OP, Would you tell me if I'm wrong but the way I read that was "It's ok to screw people over as long as they aren't friends of mine".

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You'd be absolutely wrong.

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EDIT: Also, I like how OP thinks they are total scum, but didn't post anything about it until after it had already become public knowledge, so that he can then look totally righteous taking potshots at such terrible scum. Classy!

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I knew everything was fine on our end when everyone got back off the elevator and said they had alerted nath and gildwulf and it was safe to head out to Senor Frogs. I wasn't going to ruin my night of partying in order to run back to my laptop to post a huge thread when I knew it was ok to get into the taxi with everyone.

When I got back several hours later, I saw the first thread, talked to nath briefly on AIM, and decided it was time to try and clear up what went down.

[PITTM]

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Can we say there's a difference between

a)Tongni playing on HIV's account,
b)Tongni playing on HIV's account and, say, posting an NVG or BBV thread entitled "HIV SITTING AT 1K/2K STARS GOGOGOGOGO",
and c)Tongni playing on HIV's account and having HIV actively set up HU matches vs. him?


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Yes, there is a difference in these three cases, specifically how likely the person affected is going to be associated with 2+2. But, as El Diablo has already pointed out, something doesn't become more wrong when the victim is you or your friend.

It is pretty pathetic that there is not 100% unanimity on the fact that a) is a pure angle-shoot. Not to ride too hard on you nath (because sadly I think your attitude is reflective of much of 2+2's views), but EVEN ONE OF THE VICTIMS doesn't think it is too scummy to angle-shoot others, as long as you don't know them on an internet message board.

Obviously I am not naive enough to believe that this behavior doesn't happen on a frequent basis. But that is irrelevant to the fact that it an angle-shoot, pure and simple. And sadly, it's not just desperate gamblers who are in heavy debt who are resorting to angle-shooting. Now it's winning players who decide to do it for laughs or just because they think they can. In fact, they are so cavalier about it that they continue to ham it up once discovered as if what they did was just a funny prank.

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as i said before. pokerstars has repeatedly said they dont care about players having other players play on their account and wont do anything about it. i think that may be where this distinction comes from.

rj

[sweetjazz]

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i think its hilarious how gild/nath/dean have this monopoly on playing hiv. they happily take 10k at a time off this kid who has very little chance of beating them. lets face it, you're basically taking money off some degenerate gambler. you may be fine with that, whatever. but please don't be so morally outraged when the kid comes up with a pretty funny idea to have someone else sit on his account and play.

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Everyone challenged HIV, HIV repeatedly picked GuildWulf to play. (IIRC correctly there was a thread with tons of "Play ME HIV posts at one point).

If you want to call GW scummy for taking advantage of a degenerate, that is perfectly fine.

If you want to justify the actions that took place because the intended victim was someone you think is scummy, that is not fine. That is a seriously flawed rationalization for cheating. (Taking advantage of bad play or poor impulse control is not cheating. You can argue scummy in a lot of circumstances, but there is a clear difference.)

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I have to LOL that this has to be explained to people here (but it does).

[gumpzilla]

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<u>Mushy Middle</u>
miagoo
gumpzilla



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Yes, I realize that questioning "What exactly is so terrible about this compared to very similar things that people seem to feel is okay?" can be difficult, but come on now. As I said elsewhere in the thread, everybody has an opinion on poker ethics, but rarely well thought out reasons as to why their particular collection of beliefs is the right one. In many cases, it seems to be "Well, everybody else is doing it."

Sitting on other people's accounts when you're not specifically soliciting matches seems pretty dirty to me, but even nath the paragon of virtue seems to think that's cool. (EDIT: As a disclaimer, I have in one instance played Stars VIP freerolls for a friend who wasn't able to make them that day, so I've done [censored] like this too.) Why? Presumably because many people are doing it. Arguing that it isn't specifically against the rules doesn't help, because what tongni/HIV did isn't explicitly against the rules either. Likewise, I've always felt that HUDs seem kind of dirty, and arguably against the T&amp;C of most sites, and thus don't use them. But at some point almost all regular players decided that this was an acceptable tool to use. Why? What was the process here?

Moral outrage is fun, as these threads clearly demonstrate. People feel the need to come out of the woodwork and pile on and say "ha, that guy is scum" without really contributing anything else to the discussion. It makes them feel good. I think a more productive (and interesting) discussion would be one that leads to more clearly defined standards of what is and isn't acceptable, to the extent that such a thing is possible.

[adanthar]

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For the record, I don't think you did anything wrong playing HIV in the matches, nor do I think it was scummy in any way. I cannot say someone who thinks other wise is wrong.

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if a fish that reg. plays 100/200 challenges you to HU at 100/200 I dont think it's in any way unethical to accept given the fact that, umm, we all play poker here.

Hell, most people in this forum have already told him to quit poker and go to GA multiple times, what else are we going to do?

[Gildwulf]

HIV has more experience at high-limit poker than I do fwiw

100/200-200/400 was his comfort zone, not mine

[El Diablo]

TC,

Cool. Binger is an annoying mofo, so I can understand you wanting to just chill out. What you wrote sounds completely reasonable and non-scummy.