Capital Punishment For Murderers

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that the issue can be decided without emotions or high falootin philosophy or religion. Assuming we are talking about cold blooded murders, committed by "sane" defendents, I see the following four things as objective reasons to be for or against the punishment, as opposed to life without parole.

1. Will it dissuade others from committing murder?

2. Is there more than a micro chance that the life sentence will allow an eventual release or escape?

3. Does it cost more to keep him alive?

4. Is there more than a micro chance that the defendent is innocent?

There may be other factors that deserve consideration that I haven't thought of but I doubt it.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) It seems that the answer to this question might be answered based on statistics - but the reason the stats are what they are (it does or does not dissuade) come about because of emotions. The killers (or would be killers) are affected (to kill or not to kill) by their own emotions.

2) And/or if he does get released will he kill again?

3) Kind of a barbaric metric, but a valid one.

4) Here’s where opinion, subjectivity, emotion or “high falootin philosophy” comes into play - -do we go with probability or do will go with “better that 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man hanged”? (Ftw, I vote if even one person is wrongly hanged - over a sample size of a zillion - then none of it is worth it.)

[recondite7]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4. Is there more than a micro chance that the defendent is innocent?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're reluctant to execute somebody because you think they might be innocent, shouldn't you be equally reluctant to send them to prison for life?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because someone sent to prison for life can be freed if evidence is found to prove his or her innocence. If you kill a man he is dead forever.

That being said it is much better to error on the side of allowing more murderers free due to lack of complete evidence than having innocent people in prison due to false or circumstantial evidence.

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]

That being said it is much better to error on the side of allowing more murderers free due to lack of complete evidence than having innocent people in prison due to false or circumstantial evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true if the murderer will kill again.

[suppasonic]

5) Is murder a harsher punishment than elimination of freedom for the rest of ones life?

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

That being said it is much better to error on the side of allowing more murderers free due to lack of complete evidence than having innocent people in prison due to false or circumstantial evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true if the murderer will kill again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. Why should one innocent person lie in prison to save a random victim from being killed? The innocent person has nothing to do with the hypothetical victom.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
Thinking about this some more, I was wrong to say I am in favor of the death penalty because it gives the families a measure of vengence. That would imply that we shouldn't execute someone who sadisiticly tortures a bum with no relatives. The vengence is on the part of society as a whole and the victims' families are a proxy for that. I didn't personally know the black dude who got chained to a pickup and dragged down the road, but I am rather glad the guys that did it were executed.

Another additional thought I has is that this debate can't be separated from emotion. I don't disagree with opponents of the death penalty because they are mistaken in their societal utility EV calculations - we disagree because we place different values on the outcomes. They place an almost infinite negative value on the possibility of wrongful execution and I place more value on vengence for a horrific crime. I can't do anything to change their core values, short of murdering a relative and short of wrongfully executing me (which I don't believe is possible) they aren't going to change my mind.

I'm fine with that. It is reasonable for people to have different values, but we should acknowledge that values are the basis for the disagreement, not powers of reasoning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very refreshing to see someone have a change of mind. Too often today people are reluctant to do so.

As an opponent of capital punishment, I do not consider the crime to go unavenged by placing someone in prison for life without parole. And by life without parole, I mean genuine life without any opportunity for parole, although I understand that at some time in the future, the state could decide to change the law and decide to give parole to murders. So I do see the crime as having been avenged when someone receives a sentence of LWOP.

A comment on your other additonal thought. I can't say that I'm "fine" with the fact that we, for example, have different values about the death penalty. I mean, I agree that we do share different values on this issue, as you've explained in your post, but I'm not fine with it. Your post is thoughtful and reasonable, and I don't mean to insult anyone, but I'm fine in concluding that the reasons against capital punishment are better than those for it, even if more people favor capital punishment than are against it. The result is that I may attempt to persuade you to change your mind or think differently about the issue. And I do not exclude the possibility that someday I will switch sides on this debate. But I find that very unlikely. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[LooseCaller]

[ QUOTE ]
Capital Punishment has a couple of drawbacks:

A) A lot more murderers will go free in society! Why? Well, if the court feels that it need to be 100% sure to kill the prisoners, every now and then a murdrere will not be found guilty, because of fear of a 1% mistake. But that 1% risk is ok to take if locking in someone for good...

B) A murderer will not fear killing again, for example the polices chasing him, since he is "already dead"

C) A few killersa uses the Capital Punishment as "suicide by others", letting the police/court kill them instead of comitting suicide

D) I myself would fear living in a small box for 50+ years more than being killed...

Sorry for my bad english, but I hope you understand my points.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with your opinion that capital punishment is a poor decision as a punishment for murder but i think you make a very common psychological error in D.

there have been studies in which perfectly healthy people have been given questions about whether they would rather continue to live if they were severely physically disabled (missing both arms, partial paralysis, quadrapilegic, etc) and the healthy people often said they would rather be dead than paralyzed from the neck down.

this same poll is then given to groups of people who actually suffer from these severe disabilities. they near universally would prefer life with their condition than death. the capacity for humans to adapt to difficult situations is an amazing and impressive thing and while you may think that you would rather die than spend 50 years in a prison cell, your opinion would most likely be different if you actually were presented with this choice.

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. Why should one innocent person lie in prison to save a random victim from being killed? The innocent person has nothing to do with the hypothetical victom.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if it is two hypothetical victims?

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]
5) Is murder a harsher punishment than elimination of freedom for the rest of ones life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that it isn't. But I think that life in prison serves to do nothing except remove the person from society. The death penalty does the same thing except cheaper(if the person is relatively young to begin with). And the costs for capital punishment could be decreased even further by limiting what I feel to be the absurd appeal system in place in this country.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
The death penalty does the same thing except cheaper(if the person is relatively young to begin with).

[/ QUOTE ]

Source?