Why exactly is it bad etiquette to ask to see a losing showdown hand?

[brettbrettr]

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It depends on the situation. If a guy bets into me like crazy and I make a tough call, I have no qualms about asking to see his hand. I wanna whether he was betting with am naked AK, flush draw, 22, etc.

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If he bets and you call, he's going to either say "no pair" or "you're good" or "i missed" or whatever. But you're basically going to know what they had and a bettor *has* to show first anyways.

[illeagle]

I think it'd kill the action from the fish a little if every player had to show their hands at showdown. It also slows the game down.

[rowdyclassmate]

Playing live, I have found that more no-limit players ask to see cards than limit players. Aside from a few instances, I won't ask to see anyone's cards. Once they hit the muck, let's get the next hand going.

[Rick Nebiolo]

You might find Tommy Angelo's IWTSTH essay helpful.

~ Rick

[magoo]

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Furthermore it just makes sense to me that both players SHOULD HAVE TO show their cards at a showdown.



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WTF!

[MrFizzbin]

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Can anyone explain to me the basis behind the etiquette here?

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On-line Casino's show the hands because they don't want to be deluged with "They're Cheating" requests flooding their support. So they show all hands at showdown. This also allows weaker players to get better, and allows the cheaterwear that datamines a table to get a better read on the players at the tables.

In addition whats been mentioned in posts above,

1) You may inadvertently cost someone a pot, by saying IWTSTH a player that might have mucked now shows costing the other player a hand. Some dealers I've talked to will sometimes flip the cards up before touching the muck keeping them live intentionally in the hope that they will affect the outcome, and thus punsh the IWTSTH player. They said they limit this activity to the player who's in the hand that does this.

2) It identifies the person doing it constantly as a weak player. If you don't have a reasonable idea of what happened on a hand you should pick up your chips and head to the blackjack or craps table. There will be times when you are curious, or you have to settle for a range of hands with out knowing the exact hand but you ought to be able to get the jist of what they have.

3) It causes bad feelings at the table, who would you rather play with guys that keep it light an joke around or angle shooters trying to put people on tilt to get an edge. Rule one of a poker game is keep it happy, keep it light, keep em gambling, as Sun Tzu said "Be generous in victory and ruthless in defeat." asking to see a loser is punishing that person and shaming him.

4)By invoking a rule to combat cheating you are accusing the other player of cheating. I know these days younger people don't take personal reputation very seriously, but there was a time that when you accused someone of cheating that was a serious thing and requires a little proof.

Here's a personal antidote where it was called on me:

I was at a $500 buy in tournament at the Gold Strike, it was early in the tournament (first level) I get 9-10 of clubs in a middle possition 5 people limp. Flop comes K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] early player bets, player next to the better calls, I raise. turn is 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] early player bets, guy calls I raise again. the first player calls, the guy between us gives up the ghose. river is a 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] the first player checks, I decide that even if I bet I'm getting called so I decide to give up the ghost and check. After I check the player who folded on the turn says IWTSTH. Early player shows K6. I turned to him and asked firmly "Who do you think I'm cheating with, the purpose of the rule is to prevent cheating so who am I cheating with."

His reply was "Nobody I just want to know what you're playing."

I told him "Thats not the purpose of the rule, what exactly do you think I have ?"

He said "A flush draw that you missed with" while the discussuion is going on I noticed that the dealer wasn't protecting the muck, so I took my cards and fired them into the muck. One of them made it into the middle of the pile one was retrieveable, as I did I said "I guess you don't need to see them then" If I hadn't been in the 5 seat I never would have tried this but the muck was closer to me that the dealers hand so I tossed my hand. The guy got pissed that he only got to see one card and took a walk. I did get a stern warning from the dealer however. a win-win for me. When the dude came back he didn't ask for anymore hands...

[pig4bill]

IWTSTH doesn't apply in tournaments, does it? I've never seen it in any tournament I've played in.

[KenProspero]

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If you don't know the reason for something and don't ask you are a douchebag

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FYP

[AngusThermopyle]

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1) You may inadvertently cost someone a pot, by saying IWTSTH a player that might have mucked now shows costing the other player a hand. Some dealers I've talked to will sometimes flip the cards up before touching the muck keeping them live intentionally in the hope that they will affect the outcome, and thus punsh the IWTSTH player. They said they limit this activity to the player who's in the hand that does this.


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You do not know the rule. If 'the winner' asks to see the hand, then the hand is live, even if the dealer 'touches the muck' with them. If anybody else asks to see the hand, it is dead, even if the dealer does not 'touch the muck' with the cards. So a dealer cannot 'punish' anyone and a 3rd party cannot cost 'the winner' the pot (if the dealer turns the hand over, if the player turns his own hand over, it is live).

[*TT*]

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You might find Tommy Angelo's IWTSTH essay helpful.

~ Rick

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As well as Bob Ciafone's 3 article series in the Card Player archives, its the best treatment of the IWTSTH rule I have read to date.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]