LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered

[JMa]

"But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent."

the same goes for the Israelis, no?

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
"But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent."

the same goes for the Israelis, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so. Many Palestinians will be satisfied only if the Israelis are pushed into the sea or Israel is completely destroyed. I doubt many Israelis hold to a similar hard line such that they would only be satisfied if all of the Palestinians are forcibly removed from where they are now and deported to, say, Jordan.

Didn't Israel offer the Palestinians a two-state solution (which may have been flawed, and did not meet with Arafat's approval)? The point is, Israel at least offered it. When has the Palestinian leadership ever offered a two-state solution? Why do so many Palestinians insist on a right of return instead of being willing to countenance a two-state solution? Major political leaders amongst the Palestinians have said that a two-state solution is unacceptable.

It therefore seems to me that the Palestinian position is more extreme and hard-line than Israel's position (which is also an also ironic observation, as the party with the weaker bargaining power usually does not also adopt the more intransigent position).

[HeavilyArmed]

[ QUOTE ]
But it seems that the "all or nothing" mindset and political clout of those with such views amongst the Palestinians, is too widespread, too irrational, and too violent. There are simply too many Palestinian political players (and common people as well) who will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. Now, that's crazy, to fight an irrational and unwinnable battle forever and in the process consign themselves and their descendants to misery on top of unfulfillment. I can't think of another displaced people that has ever adopted such an intransigent, irrational and self-destructive position as the fairly widespread view amongst Palestinians that nothing less than the total destruction of Israel will suffice. And they are thereby choosing to live in misery (instead of building up their own productive resources, and also striving for a compromise) because of that black-or-white viewpoint held by so many.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it impossible to generate any sympathy for a people bent on self-destruction.

It makes my head hurt when I try to imagine the extent of this type of thinking among others in the middle east.

[Utah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget for now who is right and who is wrong, who has done what to whomever, and who should really take the first step towards peace. Simply, what would happen in the Palenstians stopped trying to kill Israeli citizens with terrorism, denounced talk of destroying Israeli, quelled the hate, attempted to build a prosperous society, and sued for peace?

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget for now who is right and who is wrong, who has done what to whomever, and who should really take the first step towards peace. Simply, what would happen in the Palenstians stopped trying to kill Israeli citizens with terrorism, denounced talk of destroying Israeli, quelled the hate, attempted to build a prosperous society, and sued for peace?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess: more settlements in the West Bank.

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget for now who is right and who is wrong, who has done what to whomever, and who should really take the first step towards peace. Simply, what would happen in the Palenstians stopped trying to kill Israeli citizens with terrorism, denounced talk of destroying Israeli, quelled the hate, attempted to build a prosperous society, and sued for peace?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess: more settlements in the West Bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Within a couple of years the wall comes down, the Israelis withdraw from almost the entire West Bank, trade other land for the difference, allow a small symbolic 'right of return', allow for the Palestinians East Jerusalem as their Capitol (with guaranteed access to religious sites for the Jews) and the Israelis help the Palestinians in every way they can. That is what will happen if the Palestinians do a 180.

[ACPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget for now who is right and who is wrong, who has done what to whomever, and who should really take the first step towards peace. Simply, what would happen in the Palenstians stopped trying to kill Israeli citizens with terrorism, denounced talk of destroying Israeli, quelled the hate, attempted to build a prosperous society, and sued for peace?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess: more settlements in the West Bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Within a couple of years the wall comes down, the Israelis withdraw from almost the entire West Bank, trade other land for the difference, allow a small symbolic 'right of return', allow for the Palestinians East Jerusalem as their Capitol (with guaranteed access to religious sites for the Jews) and the Israelis help the Palestinians in every way they can. That is what will happen if the Palestinians do a 180.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful if it would happen.

Even more doubtful if anyone in Palestine believes this. Why should they?

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I maintain that the Israelis have shown a far greater willingness to settle than the Palestinians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, I don't. You are welcome to try to persuade me with examples, or we can just drop it.

Blaming Palestinians for causing trouble in Lebanon and Jordan is a little unfair. ALl of Lebanon's neighbours plus varying foreing powers and Lebanese themselves have caused trouble there, Israel most of all, and it's not like a single one of those refugees actually wants to be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget for now who is right and who is wrong, who has done what to whomever, and who should really take the first step towards peace. Simply, what would happen in the Palenstians stopped trying to kill Israeli citizens with terrorism, denounced talk of destroying Israeli, quelled the hate, attempted to build a prosperous society, and sued for peace?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess: more settlements in the West Bank.

[/ QUOTE ]

Within a couple of years the wall comes down, the Israelis withdraw from almost the entire West Bank, trade other land for the difference, allow a small symbolic 'right of return', allow for the Palestinians East Jerusalem as their Capitol (with guaranteed access to religious sites for the Jews) and the Israelis help the Palestinians in every way they can. That is what will happen if the Palestinians do a 180.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful if it would happen.

Even more doubtful if anyone in Palestine believes this. Why should they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because 'everybody' knows this is the sensible, doable, reasonable and fair deal. Everybody, including the Palestinians but they don't want it. The militants are caught up in the romance of their struggle and no moderate dares oppose them on pain of death. That is why I stated above my wish that the Arab League take over the negotiations for them. I'm sure that is the deal they would make and I firmly believe the Israelis accept it. It is pretty much what was offered by Barak and rejected by Arafat who I consider the worst possible 'leader' the Palestinians could've ever hoped for. Actually, I read that he said he would be assassinated if he'd accepted but he was the one that created the culture that justified that fear.

And I don't see why the Palestinians would fear that the Israelis would not perform as promised (yes I know that Israel has violated past agreements to some degree) considering that there would have to be strict measures in place to guaranty it for both sides.

[ACPlayer]

There are no doubt a lot of Israeli's who would like to see such a deal. And there are no doubt a lot of Palestinians who would like to see the deal.

Unfortunately, IMO, the two parties in power represent extremist positions and groups.

Unfortunately, IMO, the people who elect both these parties have extremist positions. Which leads me to believe that the 'everybody' you mention does not include the plurality of the people on both sides of the wall.

And there in a nut shell lies the problem. Both sides are being run by religious extremists.

Given which side of the wall has all the military power, I will stick with my prediction -- "more settlements on the West Bank"

[Mickey Brausch]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider who conquered who hundreds or thousands of years ago a sunk cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

History is the great poisoner.

No, correct this : Unique history is the great poisoner.

Since, out of a myriad of myriads possible denouement, only one historical development actually did take place, we are stuck to gaze upon, fixate on and shape our sentiments around those actual, yet inherently rather chancy, eventualities.

Quantum physics might have the solution for us : MWI. The many-worlds interpretation.

We must, as soon as possible, flood our kids' minds with as many as possible historical developments leading to the current state of the world. There should be nothing left untouched on account of it being improbable or far fetched.

When we have enough MW's, the importance of one world would cease to seem so important. And we shall, perhaps, grow up a bit.

Mickey Brausch