LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered

[nicky g]

As usual you are completely wrong. The reason you are so often wrong, in case you wish to rectify the situation, is that you persist in arguing about topics you know nothing about and prefer to learn nothing about.

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The CHECKPOINTS are for Arabs wishing to enter ISREALI territory.


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No they aren't. While there are of course such checkpoints, there are hundreds of checkpoints within Palestinian territory. There are checkpoints at the entrance and exit of virtually every major Palestinian town in teh West Bank. One town, Qalqilya, has only one entrance/exit for the entire town. Palestinians have to go through numerous checkpoints to get from one part of Palestine to another as well as to enter israel (which the vast majority are totally barred from doing).


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Arabs come to Israel for work because the Arab leadership is too incompetant to nuture job growth in Arab lands.

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It is completely impossible to nurture economic activity in a territory where freedom of movement is completely non-existant and where the occupying powers can and do both appropriate and destroy property as they wish. The Israelis have prevented the Palestinains from opening either a port or an airport in Gaza - all transport must go through frequently closed Israeli-manned land checkpoints. WHo would invest in such a place?

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Which occupied territory are you referring to? The fence has been built. Isreali on one side and the Arabs on the other.

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No. Israelis free to cross the fence as often as they want, to cross through all checkpoints unimpeded, to live on whichever side they chose, to steal Palestinian land, to use roads on the Palestinian side of the fence that Palestinians are barred from using or even crossing, cutting off areas from each other. Palestinians on one side, stuck there. Hence why it is aptly called the apartheid wall.

[Coco]

How about the last name Lieberman?

I guess anything over 50% is considered to be in the generally range.

[nicky g]

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Translation: Difficulty in accessing ISRAELI medical facilities. Why should they have access to Israeli medical facilities? There have been cases of pregnant Palestinian women trying to smuggle bombs into Israel. The Israel's are being smart to restrict their access to Israeli medical help. If anything the Israelis deserve a medal for not denying ALL Palestinians medical help to ALL Israeli hospitals...

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Again, no. Many Palestinians have died by ambulances being held up at checkpoints within the West Bank and prevented from getting to Palestinain medical facilities.

[ACPlayer]

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The fact is that the vast majority of muslims generaly like being ruled by other muslims.

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So what? That's true ever where. That's meaningless. A better question is: How do non-Muslims fare under Muslim rule?

For a group that always claims to be oppressed, they sure are brutal to the minorities in their midst.

Well, heck you DO have three choices I guess- convert, accept 2nd class citizenship....
or die. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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The cases of "or die" that I am familar with are (where there was this threat not in the context of a war):
1. The treatment of the Sephardim at the hands of the Christians in Spain.
2. The treatment of the Jews by the Germans
3. The treatement of the Christians at the hands of the Godless soviets.

As far as I know there have not been systematic, statewide exterminations based on religion by Muslims -- other than in the context of a war. Yes non-muslims in muslim states have had to pay for the protection to carry on practicing their faiths. But an -- or die -- threat by a government???

[ACPlayer]

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How about the last name Lieberman?

I guess anything over 50% is considered to be in the generally range.

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He is not electable as a president and likely hurt Gore.

[nicky g]

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IMO, they do what they do because their Arab culture demands revenge above all else. Having been 'humiliated' by losing over and over they must strive to regain their manhood or else they are regarded as less than men.

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Of course. It must be because of backwards "Arab culture". It can't be because of hundreds of thousands of people losing their homes and livelihoods and all of them living under repressive foreign rule as stateless non-citizens for at least four decades. All non-Arab "cultures" would cheeerfully submit to such conditions.

[Howard Beale]

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IMO, they do what they do because their Arab culture demands revenge above all else. Having been 'humiliated' by losing over and over they must strive to regain their manhood or else they are regarded as less than men.

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Of course. It must be because of backwards "Arab culture". It can't be because of hundreds of thousands of people losing their homes and livelihoods and all of them living under repressive foreign rule as stateless non-citizens for at least four decades. All non-Arab "cultures" would cheeerfully submit to such conditions.

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It is their Arab culture of Jihad, Jihad, Attack, Attack, Revenge, Revenge that got them in this mess. They've been offered countless chances of a peaceful settlement. The Israelis have eased up on them time after time and they get attacked each time. They've got Gaza now and they were handed an intact greenhouse industry which they looted and destroyed. They are now attacking each other. They could take a different route but they don't and they won't. It's my belief that they could have a decent homeland, peace with Israel and prosperity if they would only ask for it and mean it. The Israelis would even help them prosper if they were allowed to but the Palestinians want what they 'must' have which is victory thru violence. Yes, I have little regard for Arab culture and they have given me reason for my opinion.

[nicky g]

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They've got Gaza now

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They don't "have" Gaza. There are no longer Israeli troops there but they have no control over their own airspace, borders, coast, water, foreign relations or basically anything other than internal municipal services that they can't pay for because of the blockade that's been in place for almost as long as the settlers have been gone.


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nd they were handed an intact greenhouse industry which they looted and destroyed

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Ahahaha. If only they still had a handful of greenhouses; then they could send some tomatoes to rot at the closed border crossings and all would be well. Maybe they'd like their own olive groves that the Israelis repeatedly destroyed rather than foreigners' greenhouses. What they have is a large open priosn. I'm also sure if the Soviets had have occupied the US and then, after 40 years, removed a troop presence from New York City, the entire US would have happily called it quits.

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Yes, I have little regard for Arab culture and they have given me reason for my opinion.

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I'm sure you know a lot about it.

[Howard Beale]

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They've got Gaza now

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They don't "have" Gaza. There are no longer Israeli troops there but they have no control over their own airspace, borders, coast, water, foreign relations or basically anything other than internal municipal services that they can't pay for because of the blockade that's been in place for almost as long as the settlers have been gone.

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They've got it enough to something else besides murder each other and launch rockets into Israel and to smuggle arms under the Egyptian border. How about taking some sort of advantage of Israel's abandonment of Gaza to do something positive?

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nd they were handed an intact greenhouse industry which they looted and destroyed

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hahaha. If only they still had a handful of greenhouses; then they could send some tomatoes to rot at the closed border crossings and all would be well. Maybe they'd like their own olive groves that the Israelis repeatedly destroyed rather than foreigners' greenhouses. What they have is a large open priosn. I'm also sure if the Soviets had have occupied the US and then, after 40 years, removed a troop presence from New York City, the entire US would have happily called it quits.

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Those tomatoes rot at the border because the Israelis have to protect themselves. I've read about the time consuming means by which the Israelis allow those tomatoes to cross. They do it to protect themselves. Why they don't just tell the Palestinians to go to Hades with their tomatoes is beyond me. Why do the brutal oppressors import their 'subject' people's tomatoes anyway? And how many times do I have to hear about olive groves? Always with the olive groves. The Palestinians are always mentioning olive groves as if they are the Garden of Eden. Are they planting new olive groves in Gaza or are they busy trying to assassinate each other? And where is the law amongst themselves? There is no law amongst themselves that is where the law is. And what do they have in the way of leadership? AK-47's is what they have in the way of leadership. There is nothing, NOTHING, positive coming out of the place.

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Yes, I have little regard for Arab culture and they have given me reason for my opinion.

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I'm sure you know a lot about it.

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Just what I've seen with my own eyes for my entire life. You noticed, I hope, that I didn't say 'Islamic' culture. The Turks treat Jews pretty well and so do the Kurds. Historically, Arabs treated Jews far, far better than Christians did so long as the Jew knew his place. Once there was an 'Israel' the Jew no longer knew his place and THAT the Arab can't stand.

I still maintain, though, that despite all of this Israel would help the Palestinians with an open, honest hand if they were allowed to but the Palestinians won't allow it because they just can't. It's un-manly. I wish the Arab League would negotiate directly with Israel and come to some reasonable agreement and then force the Palestinians to abide by it.

I see I'm not so good at this breaking up of the quotes. Sorry about that.

[nicky g]

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They've got it enough to something else besides murder each other and launch rockets into Israel and to smuggle arms under the Egyptian border. How about taking some sort of advantage of Israel's abandonment of Gaza to do something positive?

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Yeah how dare they try to get arms? Their occupier is only one of the biggest arms importers in the world.

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hose tomatoes rot at the border because the Israelis have to protect themselves. I've read about the time consuming means by which the Israelis allow those tomatoes to cross. They do it to protect themselves. Why they don't just tell the Palestinians to go to Hades with their tomatoes is beyond me. Why do the brutal oppressors import their 'subject' people's tomatoes anyway?

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FIne by me if Israel doesn't want to buy Palestinian crops. But it doesn;t allow Palestinians to export directly to other states and controls all the borders. Everything has to go via Israel. What positive do you see coming out of such a place? Right wingers are all for the amazing benefits of trade but never seem to see that nothing good can happen for the Palestinians under the complete blocking of all their trade and even internal trade amongst themselves. I ask you again - what exactly do you want them to "do" with Gaza when it is under complete economic blockade, has no port or airport, and the PA isn't even allowed access to its own taxes? WHen noone can be paid and no foreign bank is willing to transfer money into the territories for fear of US lawsuits? And when that has been the case for almost the entire period since the settlers left?

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And how many times do I have to hear about olive groves? Always with the olive groves. The Palestinians are always mentioning olive groves as if they are the Garden of Eden. Are they planting new olive groves in Gaza or are they busy trying to assassinate each other?

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Wow. So destroying some economically insignificant greenhouses abandonned by their colonial overlords is outrageous. But how dare they complain when their olive groves, one of the mainstays of their economy, are destroyed? That;s really something. Yes they do try to replant olive grows where they can but they take a very long time to regrow, which is one of the reasons the destruction of them is so damaging.

As for the "all they can do is assassinate each other" jibe, what do you expect when Israel and the West are starving Palestinians into overthrowing the democratically elected government? Such conditions are obviously ripe for conflict.

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Yes, I have little regard for Arab culture and they have given me reason for my opinion.

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I'm sure you know a lot about it.

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Just what I've seen with my own eyes for my entire life.

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So you have extensive experience of the Arab world I take it? Enough to sweepingly denounce the supposedly unified "culture" of all Arabic speaking peoples in a few sentences?

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I wish the Arab League would negotiate directly with Israel and come to some reasonable agreement

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The Arab League has offered Israel a peace plan to negotiate on based on teh two state solution pushed by the entire world. Only last month it called for a regional conference on the topic. It is Israel that is unwilling to negotiate.

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and then force the Palestinians to abide by it.

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That's right. Screw democracy and self=determination. Let's carry on forcing things on the Palestinians like we've been doing for 100 years. It's worked so well so far.