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#31
12-14-2006, 08:59 PM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
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"Parts of the barrier are built on land confiscated from Palestinians" "The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects." [/ QUOTE ] None of these prevent them from developing an economy in the land they do occupy.... The article offers a few vague accusations but no meat. Sorry if I'm underwhelmed... [ QUOTE ] The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms [/ QUOTE ] They don't have the freedom to travel on Israeli land. So what. What do you expect when they murder Israeli civilians? Flowers? The Jews ahve the right to live their lives without people trying to blow them up... [ QUOTE ] increased difficulty in accessing medical services [/ QUOTE ] Translation: Difficulty in accessing ISRAELI medical facilities. Why should they have access to Israeli medical facilities? There have been cases of pregnant Palestinian women trying to smuggle bombs into Israel. The Israel's are being smart to restrict their access to Israeli medical help. If anything the Israelis deserve a medal for not denying ALL Palestinians medical help to ALL Israeli hospitals... 
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#32
12-14-2006, 09:27 PM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
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"The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects." [/ QUOTE ] WHich translates into something like....much harder for suicide bombers to infiltrate Israel.... Tough break. They also fail to consider the self-esteem issues [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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#33
12-14-2006, 09:31 PM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
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[ QUOTE ] "Parts of the barrier are built on land confiscated from Palestinians" "The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms, decreased checkpoints and closures, loss of land, increased difficulty in accessing medical services, change in political tactics and strategy, and economic effects." [/ QUOTE ] None of these prevent them from developing an economy in the land they do occupy.... The article offers a few vague accusations but no meat. Sorry if I'm underwhelmed... [/ QUOTE ] a) "....economic effects." For instance, israel destroyed alot of fruit/olive plantages when they built the wall. Irrigation pipes were destroyed. etc. And no, it doesnt offer a few vague accusations but no meat. "According to the Palestinian Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) and other sources, 45% of Qalqilyah's farmland[62][63] now lie outside the barrier, and farmers require permits from Israeli authorities to access their lands that are on the opposite side. There are three gates in the barrier for the purpose of admitting farmers with permits to their fields that are open 3 times a day for a total of 50 minutes,..." Very precise. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The barrier has many effects on Palestinians including reduced freedoms [/ QUOTE ] They don't have the freedom to travel on Israeli land. So what. What do you expect when they murder Israeli civilians? Flowers? The Jews ahve the right to live their lives without people trying to blow them up... [/ QUOTE ] b) The freedom issue. From the article: "The route [of the fence] inside the West Bank severs communities, people’s access to services, livelihoods and religious and cultural amenities." I agree w/ you that the Jews have their right to live their lives in peace, but so do the Palestinians. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] increased difficulty in accessing medical services [/ QUOTE ] Translation: Difficulty in accessing ISRAELI medical facilities. Why should they have access to Israeli medical facilities? There have been cases of pregnant Palestinian women trying to smuggle bombs into Israel. The Israel's are being smart to restrict their access to Israeli medical help. If anything the Israelis deserve a medal for not denying ALL Palestinians medical help to ALL Israeli hospitals... [/ QUOTE ] c) Health issue. FTFA: "...report from Physicians for Human Rights-Israel also states that the barrier imposes "almost-total separation" on the hospitals from the population they are supposed to serve." You should seriously re-read the article.
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#35
12-14-2006, 09:38 PM
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Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
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[ QUOTE ] The Buddhists of Afgahanistan Agree [/ QUOTE ] Seeing you are accusing the forum of being uninformed you can tell me when was the last time there was a significant buddhist population in Afganistan. Hint (is over 600 years ago). Saying that Muslims were harsh to Buddhists in Afganistan is like saying Christians were harsh to pagans as the time frame is very similar. [/ QUOTE ] Where am I accusing the forum of being uninformed? Please point it out to me because I can't find it at all-- but I will freely admit that there aren't many (if any) buddhists in afghanistan and retract that statement. The fact that the Taliban destroyed those statues is definitely an incorrect response to the statement that people living under Muslim rule like it. That being said, I can point out the persecution of non-Muslims in many if not ALL Muslim countries. The two I have pointed out-- the Sudan and Pakistan-- have yet to be addressed by anyone who claims the people living under Muslim rule enjoy it-- sheer ludicrousy.
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#36
12-15-2006, 01:27 AM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to". [/ QUOTE ] When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things? Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause. [/ QUOTE ] i think i get your point and i agree to some extent. however, this can be said about many areas and states in the world and it seems to be a hard issue to solve. i do not really know much of their history to comment on it but i am certain that the fence is a huge step back for the Palestinians. [/ QUOTE ] The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship.
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#37
12-15-2006, 03:05 AM
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Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
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[ QUOTE ] Israel isn't perfect but they sure as hell have a right to exist. [/ QUOTE ]Lets say they dont have a right to exist. It doesnt really matter. They are not going away. Maybe the Palestinians has gotten one of the worst deals in the 20th century. That doesnt matter either. The Palestinians should still act in their own self interest and try to prosper with the hand dealt to them. I dont understand why they do not. What am I missing from the equation? [/ QUOTE ] However bad the Palestinians have it they have had it nowhere close to the worst in the 20th or any other century. They are lucky they are dealing with Jews who will try to understand them, try to deal with them, try to appease them, try to reason with them instead of simply destroying them. IMO, they do what they do because their Arab culture demands revenge above all else. Having been 'humiliated' by losing over and over they must strive to regain their manhood or else they are regarded as less than men. This extends to murdering their own women or seeking to murder those who offend themselves or their tribes. There is now anarchy and near civil war in Gaza because they know no other way and that's the way it's always going to be until a peace is imposed on them by others on the Arab side, not the Western side. And who knows if that will ever happen.
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#38
12-15-2006, 03:35 AM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
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The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship. [/ QUOTE ] Fence... fence... fence!? I kept on thinking about the Bush's fence between the USA and Mexico?
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#39
12-15-2006, 11:12 AM
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Re: Self-Inflicted Injuries
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the fence is built partly on land confiscated from the Palestinians. they are not "free to seek prosperity like Israel has chosen to". [/ QUOTE ] When have the Palestinians ever tried to seek prosperity? What industries have they tried to build up? When have they ever tried to install real leadership instead of following murderous thugs? When have they ever tried to quell terrorism? Why are they not free to do these things? Maybe they got a raw deal in their situation back in the day. But, they have done absolutely nothing to help their own cause. [/ QUOTE ] i think i get your point and i agree to some extent. however, this can be said about many areas and states in the world and it seems to be a hard issue to solve. i do not really know much of their history to comment on it but i am certain that the fence is a huge step back for the Palestinians. [/ QUOTE ] The fence would not be going up if the Palestinians had stopped the suicide bombers. I think the Palestinians may have gotten a raw deal many decades ago but the fence is their own doing. You cant massacre a nations civilians and they cry that the fence they put up to stop you is unfair and is causing you hardship. [/ QUOTE ] the wall is mostly of the Palestinians own doing, yes. Israel is free to do whatever they wanna do on their own soil, but to erect the wall on Palestinian soil is most likely a step away from peace.
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#40
12-15-2006, 11:29 AM
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Re: LA Times Op-ed: Islam gets concessions; infidels get conquered
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] when Muslims beat infidels, [/ QUOTE ] Contempory example please. [/ QUOTE ] I dont think your example is on point. To the victors go many of the spoils. Look at how muslims have been treated in India for a counter example. How about Pakistan? They won independence around the same time that Israel did. Let's see how the Hindu's of that area like it: Hindus in Pakistan "During 1970 and 1971, huge massacres were perpetrated upon Hindus, by the Pakistani army. A proper study into the casualty figures has never been conducted. Estimates for the number dead are up to 3 million. Millions of Hindu women were raped and kidnapped in this period. It was one of the largest massacres in recent history, and also one of the most ignored. In 1977, General Zia ul-Haq led a military coup in Pakistan. He introduced Islamic Law, which further excluded and marginalised Hindus. In 1989 and 1992 over 300 Hindu temples were destroyed. Many Hindus lost their homes. The largest outward migration of Hindus from Pakistan since Partition took place during these years." [/ QUOTE ]
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