Player Discussion

[El Diablo]

Back to the matter at hand. I hope someone from 2+2 will explain this new theory of winning $15 being preferable to winning $40, so much so that those choosing the "win $40" option over the "win $15" are actually being mocked!

[poincaraux]

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You couldn't even figure out the right question to ask your friend. I will let others elaborate.

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How is responding to this guy fun for you anymore? Play a couple of hours of poker, take someone to The French Laundry and write a trip report already!

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I'm playing right now, 10/25 and 25/50 on UB. Come play!

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Um .. sorry about that .. my post was supposed to be funny. Guess it didn't come off that way.

On the one hand, I recently moved up to the $50 tables at Party, so you won't be seeing me at your stakes anytime soon.

On the other hand, you write good food-related trip reports. I went to Gary Danko recently and pretty much agreed with your take on the place. And, you said you've been planning on going to The French Laundry for a while.

How's this for a peace offering: if, at anytime in the next few years, my poker bankroll gets large enough to play the UB 10/25 or 25/50 games with you, I'll take you to The French Laundry for dinner. In the meantime, please go there and write a trip report. Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

[black_knight]

Can you tell I'm a fan of Caro? I am really pleased that he's come out and put a new article in the poker world in this month's BLUFF. I suggest you read it if you haven't: seriously, do you think that you can possibly use this level of mathematical information at the table...ever?! No, of course not! Sure it's of academic interest to know whether JJ is marginally better than AQ in certain highly contrived situations, and discuss it for hours, but the results are so minimal in influencing your in-the-hand decisions! Trivial even! Like I said, the discussion should centre around whether you should be calling a pf reraise with AQs in the first place. When we look at questions like this we have to consider that it's a TERRIBLE decision, without a read on the villian, to be doing that: too often you're dominated, and though you have position, there are VERY few flops that will come for which you'll be supremely comfortable getting into hot action. Most of the time the flop will completely miss you, and you'll be folding to their good continuation bet...UNLESS you have a read on them and decide that they're bluffing, or will fold to your semi-bluff. Thus, it's not the intricate mathematics of this discussion that sway your decision, it's everything ELSE. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that math has NO place in our decisions at the table, but you don't need to know much more than the few memorized odds that we all know of hitting our draws, or our villians drawing out on us, that we all know. What's far more important is the concept of implied odds and the coupling of that with reading your opponent. So, the math itself actually doesn't get you as far as most like to think.

[Mark1808]

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Back to the matter at hand. I hope someone from 2+2 will explain this new theory of winning $15 being preferable to winning $40, so much so that those choosing the "win $40" option over the "win $15" are actually being mocked!

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Mason Malmuth: "So when adding in these factors -- Player B sometimes betting again when the jacks don't improve, and Player A flopping a flush draw which will often give him 15 outs -- it still seems to me that A's expectation remains positive."

If JJ fires a second continuation bet that is called by AQ its more EV for AQ. However Diablo pointed out that a second continuation bet by JJ may very well get AQ off their hand given the preflop action. I am beginning to think that if JJ does make a strong continuation bet occassionally it is more EV for JJ even though the hand is behind at this point. Position is a powerful thing!

Mason?

[Larry David]

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Back to the matter at hand. I hope someone from 2+2 will explain this new theory of winning $15 being preferable to winning $40, so much so that those choosing the "win $40" option over the "win $15" are actually being mocked!

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Fine, I will explain it. If you have $15, you can go to lunch or something with a friend and spend your $15 and I will likely have a small bit of change leftover if I went somewhere cheap or ate by myself. This leads to lets say $1.50 on average left over.

If I have $40, I will go play craps with it. $10 pass, $30 odds, but what if its a 5689? I don't have max odds at a 3x4x5x odds table. I will have to pull an extra $10 or $20 out of my pocket. "7 out, line away." I'm in the red now.

[El Diablo]

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Back to the matter at hand. I hope someone from 2+2 will explain this new theory of winning $15 being preferable to winning $40, so much so that those choosing the "win $40" option over the "win $15" are actually being mocked!

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Fine, I will explain it. If you have $15, you can go to lunch or something with a friend and spend your $15 and I will likely have a small bit of change leftover if I went somewhere cheap or ate by myself. This leads to lets say $1.50 on average left over.

If I have $40, I will go play craps with it. $10 pass, $30 odds, but what if its a 5689? I don't have max odds at a 3x4x5x odds table. I will have to pull an extra $10 or $20 out of my pocket. "7 out, line away." I'm in the red now.

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Larry,

Thanks for elaborating. That definitely make a lot of sense. This is the kind of solid poker and gambling thinking that keeps 2+2 on top.

[Larry David]

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Back to the matter at hand. I hope someone from 2+2 will explain this new theory of winning $15 being preferable to winning $40, so much so that those choosing the "win $40" option over the "win $15" are actually being mocked!

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Fine, I will explain it. If you have $15, you can go to lunch or something with a friend and spend your $15 and I will likely have a small bit of change leftover if I went somewhere cheap or ate by myself. This leads to lets say $1.50 on average left over.

If I have $40, I will go play craps with it. $10 pass, $30 odds, but what if its a 5689? I don't have max odds at a 3x4x5x odds table. I will have to pull an extra $10 or $20 out of my pocket. "7 out, line away." I'm in the red now.

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Larry,

Thanks for elaborating. That definitely make a lot of sense. This is the kind of solid poker and gambling thinking that keeps 2+2 on top.

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I aim to please.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

^bump^

[El Diablo]

Hopefully Mason has fixed his problems w/ the printer and will have time to elaborate on this thread. If not, perhaps David or Ed or someone can shed some light on some of the stuff which Mason summarily dismissed as incorrect.

A number of us have been told we are missing some key concepts here, so this is pretty important.

[Phaedrus]

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A number of us have been told we are missing some key concepts here, so this is pretty important.

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I don't think there are any key concepts missing.

Mason made a qualitative argument at the table which he related to the forum. Instead of being told how smart he is and everyone chuckling about how dumb the fishes were, virtually everyone on the forum disagreed with him.

He then made a quantitative argument with various assumptions about how each player would play. (Which of course could not have been the basis for the original assertion at the table. I'll let others elaborate.)

Unfortunately for him the model actually showed that JJ was better than AQs using his assumptions. Unfortunate because it would be easy enough to tweak the assumptions to change the result and then it would have merely become an argument about how the players may or may not act in a certain situation.

That's all she wrote.

I don't think you're going to get an "I was so wrong, you were so right" out of this. It would have been forthcoming already.