"You'll win." (floor decision story)

private joker · #1 10-23-2006, 03:16 PM

The actual hand doesn't really matter here but I'll briefly recount it just for the sake of the full story.

Live limit holdem. There were a couple limpers to me on the button and I limped with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. The flop came Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The BB bet out, there were two callers, and I called. The turn was a K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB bet, and it was folded to me. With my pair, gutshot, and flush draw I called. Unfortunately the river was a total brick. Luckily BB checked so I was happy to take my free showdown, but was very certain I did not hold the best hand.

OK so he checks, and I knock the table and say, "You'll win, I just have a pair of 7s." And I immediately table my hand. He squints, sees my hand, frowns, and tosses his hand face down into the muck. The dealer shoves me the pot and I stack all the chips.

Then the opponent said, "Hey! I should get the pot! He said 'you win' so I mucked my cards!" He was kind of half-joking, but he saw an angle he could exploit so he used it. But then another player spoke up, saying he was right. If a player says "you win" then he concedes the pot, even if the opponent mucks his hand. So the dealer calls the floorperson. I told the floorman that I said "you'll win," not "you win" (nitty, I know, but I think there's a big difference there -- 'you win' is concession, but 'you'll win' is a prediction of what is going to happen when the cards are flipped up).

The floorman heard the story from the dealer and said that he may have to go check the tape, determine the size of the pot, and have me give it up to the opponent. But then another player told the floorman that I exposed my cards before the opponent mucked. That changed everything; the floorman said only if I don't expose, or if the opponent mucks before I expose, will I have to give up the pot because I said "you win." But because I turned up my hand and he saw it befeore mucking, it doesn't matter what I say. The cards speak, and I can say whatever I want, including "you win" or "you'll win" or "your sister is getting fat" or whatever.

So his final decision was to let me keep the pot, and the opponent admitted he was just "trying to teach me a lesson" and didn't really want the pot (because he had seen my hand and knew he had the loser).

This is yet another occasion in which I regretted opening my mouth at the poker table. I am, in general, a very quiet person when I play -- unless I'm with friends I am the least chatty player at the table -- but it seems every time I make a peep someone uses it against me. I DID learn a lesson, and it's a good thing the ruling was in my favor.

But I was also wondering how I could defend it if the floorman did decide to check the tape -- after all, I think I have a defense in saying "you'll win" as opposed to "you win." I know enough not to say "you win," but I guess what I did say was too close for comfort.

IronFly · #2 10-23-2006, 03:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But I was also wondering how I could defend it if the floorman did decide to check the tape

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had to defend something like this, saying "cards speak" would probably help.

private joker · #3 10-23-2006, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If you had to defend something like this, saying "cards speak" would probably help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I mean "cards speak" is why he didn't even need to check the tape -- he just awarded me the pot and moved on, since I turned over my hand. But what if I didn't expose until the opponent already mucked?

steamboatin · #4 10-23-2006, 03:49 PM

Anybody releasing their cards before the pot gets pushed deserves to lose. But if it can be shown that you intentionally miscalled your hand, you deserve a kick in the nuts. I realize that you were not trying to shoot an angle and tabled your cards properly and I realize the villian was trying to shoot an angle. This reply is to your "what if?"

GreedIsGood · #5 10-23-2006, 04:21 PM

Besides, do the tapes have audio? All the floor would see on the tape is you turning your hand over and the other player then mucking.

AngusThermopyle · #6 10-23-2006, 04:28 PM

The problem is that everybody else at the table probably 'heard' you say "You win". Even if some agree that you said "You'll win", it can be viewed as an angle by you to make your opponent muck, thinking you conceded.

pfapfap · #7 10-23-2006, 05:07 PM

Eh, doesn't matter. Even if he said "you have me beat and can sleep with my sister" he also announced his hand AND tabled it. Cards speak, end of story. Even the angle-shooter agreed.

AngusThermopyle · #8 10-23-2006, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, doesn't matter. Even if he said "you have me beat and can sleep with my sister" he also announced his hand AND tabled it. Cards speak, end of story. Even the angle-shooter agreed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you read OP's later:

[ QUOTE ]

But what if I didn't expose until the opponent already mucked?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr_Donktastic · #9 10-23-2006, 05:46 PM

These situations get so touchy feely because of the vague things people say at showdown like 'you got it' or 'you got me' or 'you're good' and the like. Or if they are contemplating a call and say something like 'i think i'll let you have it' or 'i guess i gotta fold'

As someone else said anyone who mucks because of any of these comments should lose and learn a valuable lesson ...they are just comments after all and not actions, right?

pfapfap · #10 10-23-2006, 05:55 PM

He accurately declared his hand. He still wins. Even if it was, "you win, I have a pair of 7s", the first part was mere conjecture, and the other player released his hand.