Early all in push - What is their range?

MEJG2 · #1 10-10-2006, 01:37 PM

$20 NLSng on Stars. New opponent who I have never played before pushes on hand 4. I have included the 3 hands prior to this point. What would you put the opponent on and what would you need to call them with. I have seen this a few times and I am curious what his range could be and what might be a good calling range.

******* Hand 1 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1500
BB: t1500

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero calls t10 (pot was t30), BB checks.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB bets t20, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: t20 returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 2 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1520
Hero: t1480

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero raises to t40, SB calls t20 (pot was t60).

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t80, 2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t80, 2 players)
Hero bets t60, SB calls t60 (pot was t140).

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t200, 2 players)
Hero bets t180, SB folds.
Uncalled bets: t180 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t200

******* Hand 3 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t1580
BB: t1420

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero calls t10 (pot was t30), BB checks.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t40, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t40, BB folds.
Uncalled bets: t40 returned to Hero.

Results:
Final pot: t40

******* Hand 4 ********

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
2 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
SB: t1400
Hero: t1600

Pre-flop: (2 players) Hero is BB with ??:
SB calls t10 (pot was t30), Hero raises to t60, SB raises all-in t1400,

What range can Hero put them on and what would I need to call?

Nichomacheo · #2 10-10-2006, 02:22 PM

As far as the pushing ranges goes, I'd say its fairly wide. I can see an opponent in the $20s doing this with 66+, AT+. You dont really have enough information at this point. If I was you though, I'd call with JJ+, AK. An opponent who pushes here likely isnt a good player and you can win a greater percentage of the time if you fold your 99 and play it through.

I think the real question should be the other hands...

Hand 1: Fold. Q2o isnt going to win you much money, but it may lose you a lot. The only thing you will feel safe with is a flop with two pair or trip twos and those wont come often. Playing hands like this is a huge leak in a lot of people's games.

Hand 2: You min-raise OOP? THEN you check on a draw-heavy board? You need to raise more preflop, maybe to 80, then you need to bet 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot on the flop. You want to encourage your opponent to get a lot of chips in the pot. By min-raising your opponent should correctly call with anything. Then you have no idea where you are on the flop. Its a heavy board; I assume you wanted to check-raise, but this is definitely a -EV way to play.

Hand 3: Fine, raise sometimes preflop to t60.

Trouthunter · #3 10-10-2006, 02:55 PM

Nichomacheo - On hand one are you saying he should be folding preflop? I tend to limp hands like this against a passive opponent because I'm getting 3-1 to call and he is unlikely to raise, plus, I like to play smaller pots post flop (that may be my own personal play style). If you fold hands like this preflop, then what kind of range do you need to limp or raise and aren't you pretty much getting killed by the blinds over the length of the SnG - maybe not thi early on, but still...?

MEJG2 · #4 10-10-2006, 03:05 PM

As for the all-in, I agree that i would call w JJ+. I am not sure if I would call w AK since we are still even in chips and it's only hand 4. I think at this point I have a better than 50/50 chance to play it out and win and don't want to flip against a pocket pair.

With the chip stacks even, and normal raise ahead of me, I can't think of a time I would instantly push here. So that is why I asked about ranges as I do see it done a fair amount.

As for the other hands...

Hand 1 - may be a leak, I limped here only to see how he would react to a limp from the BB. I like trying this early with an junk hand, as I can lay it down easily if he raises me. Which also plays into whatever image i am trying to portray. Later in the match,I am RR this hand on the button, if they fold any decent % of my raises.

Hand 2
I agree was played poorly. I had FPS on this hand, and it did not play like I wanted it to. I was trying to get a CR on the flop, which blew up. Then I thought for sure that he would have reraised me on the turn with a good draw and I was going to pop it up there. So I got stuck betting the river and was prepared to fold if he came over the top. The good thing is my Dr. wrote a prescription to help with the FPS.

So would you call with AK here? I am not sure I would.

Nichomacheo · #5 10-10-2006, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nichomacheo - On hand one are you saying he should be folding preflop? I tend to limp hands like this against a passive opponent because I'm getting 3-1 to call and he is unlikely to raise, plus, I like to play smaller pots post flop (that may be my own personal play style). If you fold hands like this preflop, then what kind of range do you need to limp or raise and aren't you pretty much getting killed by the blinds over the length of the SnG - maybe not thi early on, but still...?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hands like Q2o get you into tough spots. This is an important point that I think a lot of people get wrong. If you disagree, please state why....

It costs you 10 to win (20+10), so, yes, you are getting 3:1 odds. The problems abound though. What do you do if your opponent raises you to 60? Now it costs 40 to win 80, or 2:1. Those are still decent odds. Do you lay it down now? OK, now say you call, and the flop comes 257. Your opponent bets into you. Do you lay it down automatically? Do you call and re-evaluate on the turn? This seemingly small call of ten chips has gotten a lot of your chips invested in a tough spot.

Then there is the problem if the flop comes QT6. He bets and you.... now what? Call? Raise? What if he re-raises? More often than not... and this is important... you will lose a big pot or win a small one. Add all the times you miss the flop and have to fold, and calling with Q2 is a bad preflop call, even with 3:1 odds.

There are obvious excepts, like if your opponent is very passive preflop but hyperaggressive postflop, because then you'll have the right implied odds, but even then, what do you do with top pair? You still have a 2 kicker. Play poker, yeah, but I recommend waiting for a hand preflop with better implied odds.

Nichomacheo · #6 10-10-2006, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So would you call with AK here? I am not sure I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Definitely. You'll see A9-AQ enough of the time to make it a +EV call. A lot of the time it'll be a pocket pair, but I very much doubt kings or aces would do this.

Hand 1: 61.1985 % 59.96% 01.23% { AcKd }
Hand 2: 38.8015 % 37.57% 01.23% { QQ-66, AQs-A9s, KQs, AQo-A9o, KJo }

I threw in KQs and KJo, just cause he might have some junk hand.

jay_shark · #7 10-10-2006, 04:38 PM

I agree with you Nicho . This is where I disagree with Harringtons advice on heads up play .

I think he did a poor job in this section . Harrington advocates playing any two cards on the button but what he doesn't talk about is your reverse implied odds . Most of your value won or lost comes from postflop play and not preflop . q 2 is really a garbage hand , so is any other high low combination except maybe kings or aces .

Most of the time on the button it's either a raise or fold situation . Sometimes limping and folding can be good to set up your value hands but in general I hate limping and then being forced to fold to a raise .

MEJG2 · #8 10-10-2006, 04:54 PM

I guess it all depends on the range you put them on. Which is what I am having trouble with, since I don't have a range for this move in my box of tricks.

What happens if you change their range to AQ+, 66-QQ?

Nichomacheo · #9 10-10-2006, 04:59 PM

Get PokerStove and check it out [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Hand 1: 50.4696 % 43.08% 07.39% { AsKh }
Hand 2: 49.5304 % 42.14% 07.39% { QQ-66, AQs+, AQo+ }

50/50 baby.

MEJG2 · #10 10-10-2006, 05:12 PM

Thanks, I have it at home... but at work right now... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

So it all comes down to the original question, What range do we put them on.

Maybe we can post some called pushes with weak As or Ks and I will start calling more. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]