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#31
09-15-2006, 05:20 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I fold. I'd rather open-push with garbage than call an open-pusher, even in LP, and even with this hand. [/ QUOTE ] If everyone thinks this way, FE should be re-evaluated. If first-in-Vig is being overused/abused, then it can be countered. If you knew what cards your opponents had (pushing with garbage), would you still fold K9? [/ QUOTE ] Play some SNGs. Go the the STT forum. It is standard practice to wait for a spot to push with a slightly worse hand than call with a slightly better hand. Now that I think about it, this would almost be a better question for that forum. 
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#32
09-15-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I fold. I'd rather open-push with garbage than call an open-pusher, even in LP, and even with this hand. [/ QUOTE ] If everyone thinks this way, FE should be re-evaluated. If first-in-Vig is being overused/abused, then it can be countered. If you knew what cards your opponents had (pushing with garbage), would you still fold K9? [/ QUOTE ] Play some SNGs. Go the the STT forum. It is standard practice to wait for a spot to push with a slightly worse hand than call with a slightly better hand. Now that I think about it, this would almost be a better question for that forum. [/ QUOTE ] I do play sngs ~ 600 of them with a 17% ROI at 30$ avg stakes. Nothing spectacular by any means, but I'm not a complete donk. The 20/180s are technically sngs i suppose, so if this is a better Q there than I can post there. But this seems like a tourney, whatever.. my mistake. BTW, I am not trying to be combative here, at all. So please don't mistake me for that. I want to take my tourney game to the next level, this is why I am looking for opinions other than my own and my friends'. [ QUOTE ] It is standard practice to wait for a spot to push with a slightly worse hand than call with a slightly better hand. [/ QUOTE ] I am fully aware of this and have been for some time. This is my point (or lack of one). If more and more people are aware of this 'standard practice', would it not make sense to use this to your advantage and play differently? The fact that it has now become standard practice is convincing me to gamble more in certain spots. My main experience has come from STTs, and I rarely if ever gamble on the bubble without good cause, good conditions, and good reads. At a tourney (if you consider a 180 entrant one a touney), I'm looking for some new ideas as sngs nearly play themselves. Perhaps it is a function of the blind structures of the 180s~ it seems like in the 20/180s once it gets down to under 18 people there is a bottleneck ~ almost everyone's stack is in jeopardy in the 5-15BB range when almost everyone is playing preflop-poker-only, from the T1200 level to the T3000 level until a few bigger stacks emerge at the final table.
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#33
09-15-2006, 05:49 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
I am fully aware of this and have been for some time. This is my point (or lack of one). If more and more people are aware of this 'standard practice', would it not make sense to use this to your advantage and play differently? The fact that it has now become standard practice is convincing me to gamble more in certain spots. [/ QUOTE ] Sorry for being short w/you before. You in the right forum, I just wondered if the STTs guys would be better for answering it. Especially this quesiton that I quoted here. If we know the pushing range is wide, shouldn't we widen are calling range? Of course the answer is yes, but I think most people think that K9 is too wide.
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#34
09-15-2006, 06:02 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ] Sorry for being short w/you before. You in the right forum, I just wondered if the STTs guys would be better for answering it. Especially this quesiton that I quoted here. If we know the pushing range is wide, shouldn't we widen are calling range? Of course the answer is yes, but I think most people think that K9 is too wide. [/ QUOTE ] Cool, no problem. Sngs I pretty much have down, at least at the under-50$ stakes. I dont gamble (calling) at the bubble much, at all actually, until I'm in the money in those. In the 180s once im in the money, I'm looking for spots to gamble to get as many chips for the finl table as possible to get a 1st (have not won one yet). Have only played 6 so far, so looking for ideas. When blinds are low, it's a lot easier to get a home run and get some chips with speculative hands, but once the blinds get up there and post-flop-play evaporates for awhile, I'm at a loss what to do other than the standard and something tells me widening the range of calling hands in very select spots might be the key. I will be testing this theory.. and most likely losing.. in the 20/180s to come.
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#35
09-15-2006, 10:05 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
No, at best he might be going with "any King" and I have him dominated, or 'any Q', or he is using FE to buy the pot with any2 ala 76s or 76o [/ QUOTE ] It is possible that he picked up a hand. [ QUOTE ] But getting there with under 10K chips is not what I'm 'hoping' to do [/ QUOTE ] Obviously, I'm not suggesting that you fold your way to the FT. I'm just pointing out that you are manufacturing a "dire" situation when I believe it's only "getting urgent". I don't hate a call here. I just don't believe it is best. I think calling off your stack here will make it difficult to steal if you do win the hand because people will think that you over value hands. So if they have A8s in the BB they could more easily muster a call because they'd seen you make a "loose call" so they'd be more likely to believe you're making a "loose raise". Also, when you describe the table as "VERY TIGHT" and "complete luckfest" in the same breath I really believe you don't "see" the game properly. When you are playing shorthanded and people are only playing REAL hands you ought to be able to steal your way out of trouble...espically when the blinds are big. So when you call off your stack here you are foregoing an oppurtunity to steal your way to a big stack in order "capitalize" on a very slim +EV situation (which may actually be a -EV situation)
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#36
09-15-2006, 10:10 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
The blinds were VERY tight [/ QUOTE ] This is further evidence of why you should lean towards folding. Because the people to your immediate left fold too much. Yes, the fact that the blinds are tight will make this situation more +EV. But the fact that 2 people at 7 handed table play super tight implies that you'll have good oppurtunities to steal frequently. I just can't see taking a marginally +EV risk for your entire stack here when people at the table will let you steal too much.
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#38
09-15-2006, 11:00 PM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
Have only played 6 so far, so looking for ideas. [/ QUOTE ] Which is why when you post a hand on this forum it shouldn't be looking for someone to validate your play. If people offer suggestions that contradict your line of thought, you need to take them to heart, not argue vehemently against every opposing opinion. If you were so sure your play was right, why do you post the hand? I'm not trying to be contentious here, just pointing out that when you post a hand you are asking for advice. Half the posts in this thread are yours. Do a bit more listening. The short version of what my initial thought on your hand was this: don't put too much stock in a pause. Many people playing 20/180s are 4-tabling. It might have been their turn at three tables at once. K9 is marginal, especially with people left to act behind you because you have 3 people's hands to worry about not 1. If this was a SB vs BB situation I would call. In this case I think you need A8+, 22+ KJ+. You're only a coin flip against QJ here, behind any A or pair and only 60/40 over 87, with two hands behind you who have you covered and are now getting great odds to call.
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#39
09-16-2006, 05:21 AM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
I'm a math guy. If the opponent is good and the blinds are tight, folding is awful. Steve [/ QUOTE ] Sorry Steve, but it's a $20/180. Nowhere in the OP did it mention that the opponent was "good". Against a random $20 player, I assume he's smart like a hammer, and give him credit for a real hand until I at least have a little evidence to the contrary. JMO
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#40
09-16-2006, 05:26 AM
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Re: Calling Equity? late 20/180
[ QUOTE ]
Villain here has just suffered some bad luck. He has had a rush of cards, but has taken the worst of it after losing with AA, two hands later losing with AJ vs KQ, then tripling up from a tiny stack with JJ on the next hand. The very next hand after that (below) he pauses just for a few seconds before making his move again. [/ QUOTE ] I'm awake. Would this change him from a hammer to an awl?
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