The dirty little secret about Miller's book for players with PT

[Gregatron]

Since the blinds are the biggest leak in my game this thread, and specifically this post, have been really informative. Thanks for the good thoughts Harv. I agree with everything except:

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-Not raising enough from the BB behind many limpers. When you check your option while holding a hand like JJ or QJs after 5 limpers, you are only hurting yourself--by taking away profits when you win the hand, by eliminating the pot odds you need to continue with your draws, etc. When you have an equity advantage, you should usually raise; it makes no difference whether or not you're in the BB.

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I think you made a common logical fallacy here. Someone will tell me if I am off base here. If I buy a lottery ticket (-EV) and scratch it off and win, this does not mean that I did not make a mistake buying the damn thing in the first place. The same applies to the logic of raising for the purpose of manipulating the pot to have the odds to chase draws later on. I agree 1000% that raising with an equity edge is a reason to raise... it is, in fact, the reason. Should I, for example, 3 bet 33 unto a TAG's utg raise with numerous cold callers just so I will have proper odds to chase my set on the flop if I miss? Of course not.

I'm not trying to call you out here though. Everything else you said was pretty acurate IMO. Good post! I just wanted to address this one (minor?) point.

[Student Caine]

So after 2500 hands at 1/2 I am .15 outside of the blinds and -.29 @ BB, -.25 @ SB

Looks like I found a decent size leak, eh? (by decent size I mean "f***ing humungous")


EDIT:

That was just one site....if I tie all of my aliases together:

8,300 hands
.11 outside blinds
-.25 BB
-.19 SB

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Student Caine]

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I didn't know I had a secret.

But yes, lots of people don't play the blinds that well, and I think the first step a lot of tighties need to take is to loosen up a bit. And yes, if you improve your blind play, your all-around results will improve significantly.

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FWIW, I didn't totally intend to dismiss the OP. But I think his post would have been a lot more valuable if he had offered some suggestions about common mistakes people make from the blind and how to fix them.

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Could we please get your input into some common mistakes people make from the blind and how to fix them?

[Osprey]

Some weird stuff-
I am guessing this is just variance:
7,427 hands at 1-2 through 3-6 full ring
Outside blinds: 0.07 BB/hand
SB: (-0.10)
BB: (-0.10)
BB/100: 2.58

Is there a way to tell with poker tracker if I am doing something right from the blinds, or just if I just happen to be running good from the blinds?

Thanks

[WhiteShirt]

you need around 25k hands to guage where you're at for blind stats (and im sure that is a low number)

[Osprey]

Decided it was probably more useful to subdivide out where I was playing the most
2-4 full ring:
5127 hands
BB/hand outside blinds:.07
BB/hand Big Blind: (-.04)
BB/ hand Small Blind: (-.15)
BB/100: 3.19

Looking at the win % at SD is 57.50% fromo the big blind, and 49% from the small blind. This looks like this is just running good from the big blind. Also hand sample is probably too small, I am guessing.

Thanks

[BigBiceps]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I've weighed in on this topic yet. I will echo what many others have said--this is a good post, at least in the underlying message regarding the amount of money many players leak from the blinds. Based on some of the hands that we've seen posted here in the past, I think that some of the major leaks would be:

-Completing too often from the SB in a 1:2 blind structure. We all know that SSH recommends completing with any two suited, but keep in mind that advice is meant for fairly loose tables. Even the book's definition of a "tight" table is often relatively loose by online standards, especially when you get up towards middle limits. So completing with J2s, while a good play after 4 players limp, is most definitely not a good play when there's only 1 or 2 limpers. Offsuit connectors are another culprit--you need to have some very good pot odds to make completing with 67o profitable, and you aren't likely to be getting them in most online games.

-Not raising enough from the BB behind many limpers. When you check your option while holding a hand like JJ or QJs after 5 limpers, you are only hurting yourself--by taking away profits when you win the hand, by eliminating the pot odds you need to continue with your draws, etc. When you have an equity advantage, you should usually raise; it makes no difference whether or not you're in the BB.

-Poor postflop play when playing OOP. Things like check/raising a bet from the button with your flopped top two or trips on an utterly drawless board (or doing the same with your flush draw + undercards), not taking betting patterns (or likely ones) into account when playing the latter streets with a strong hand/strong draw, etc. When you flop a monster, especially out of the big blind, bet/3-bet is your friend. Get to know him.

-Overdefending your BB (I'm way guilty of this one). There's a huge difference between an aggressive player openraising from the CO and a passive one raising from UTG. Unless the raiser is a terrible LAG, you have to respect EP raises.

-Underdefending your SB. Especially on 3/6's blind structure, it's too easy to see an openraise from an aggressive player on the Button, look down at your A7o, and say "meh...it's only a dollar" before you muck. Or worse yet, to look down at a pocket pair and coldcall--with a (very) few exceptions, if your SB hand is worth defending with, it's worth 3-betting with to knock the BB out (and gain folding equity against the stealer).

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Nice reply ...

I somewhat disagree about raising from the big blind to JJ in a field of 5 limpers.

1) you are not going to get anyone to fold
2) you are out of position for the rest of the hand and it is extremely difficult to play JJ if an overcard flops (which is often).
3) if you make top set it is hard to get action (I don't know why this is, but for some reason it is hard to get action with top set of JJ).

Are you suggesting to raise, and then check fold if an overcard hits?

I also disagree with your comment about A7o in the small blind with 1/3 blind structure. I don't think your advantage with A7o versus A RANDOM HAND has equity when out of position here. A7o is just not that good, and in fact if you are dominated, you end up losing alot (it is hard to fold top pair heads up vs. an agressive player). Also, it is hard to know when to call down with your ace high as a hand, because of the randomness of the raiser's hand, he could have made any pair.

[BigBiceps]

Interesting stats.

Do you do this for a living?
How many boards do you play at a time?
What timeframe did it take you to play those hands and make $35k?

[Spook]

[ QUOTE ]

I somewhat disagree about raising from the big blind to JJ in a field of 5 limpers.

1) you are not going to get anyone to fold
2) you are out of position for the rest of the hand and it is extremely difficult to play JJ if an overcard flops (which is often).
3) if you make top set it is hard to get action (I don't know why this is, but for some reason it is hard to get action with top set of JJ).


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I agree, and this is also covered in HFAP, in late position after 3 or 4 limpers, do not raise JJ. With JJ you want it either shorter handed or as many people as possible for set possiblility.

[Spook]

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How did you come up with these numbers?

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If he made these numbers up, his math is still correct, so it is a valid point. The numbers he uses in his illustration are for illustrative purposes - so sample size is meaningless.