"Outplaying"

[nath]

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okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

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Sorry, I don't remember.

[cardsharkk04]

Its kind of hard to outplay aces full

[nath]

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Its kind of hard to outplay aces full

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Well, yeah, getting the second nuts made it easier, but I checked the flop knowing he would bluff with anything, and I bet the river small knowing he would think it was a weak attempt at a bluff and he could raise me off the hand.
So, see, I'm a [censored] genius. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[stevepa]

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okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

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So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

[dmk]

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Let the flaming begin!

I posted the quote, and no, you didn’t take it out of context. I meant what I said. TT is one of the hardest hands to play THAT SHOULD BE PLAYED, IMO. Limping sometimes/raising sometimes is read dependent and a necessity to keep your opponents guessing. Given the absolute scarcity of reads in most posts in this forum, you must have some confidence in you 2 cards AND your playing ability (experience). If no one calls behind me, then I have position and (most of the time) more OPTIONS of how to continue my action. I can use my read, position, and stack to formulate a line of play that results in me winning or bailing at the most efficient ROI. If someone does call behind me, then my options are FAR more limited and can let go of this holding without investing too many chips, unless I flop a set or better.

In this example, I am looking to OUTPLAY a weaker opponent who limps UTG. I am not bluffing, but I am showing some prudent judgment that there are others still to act. Bottom line, IMHO, is that if you do not have the confidence to outplay post flop most of your opponents, then you are severely limited in your options at the table.


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At no point did I say it is good or bad to have confidence in your own postflop play. I did, however, say the vast majority of players overestimate their ability. In addition, my way of outplaying a weak player that limps UTG is by raising when I have a better hand. Limping is horrible. You're just promoting a limpfest that will leave you out of position a good amount of time w/ a hand that is likely to flop at least 1 overcard. Your raise will typically get you HU w/ a weak player, w/ position, w/ the best hand. I'm not going to continue to discuss this hand specifically, I think not raising w/out any reads is a glaring mistake.

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If you still don't see this line, then I suggest you try a live MTT sometime.


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I acknowledged in my original post that calling is correct under certain circumstances. However, w/out any reads in an online tournament w/ a typically fast-paced structure, this line doesn't rate well at all.

Also, I'm not sure why you had to throw in a personal attack (?), but I've played 3 10k tournaments this past year. You're trying to compare apples and oranges (online fast structures vs live slow structures) in an attempt to throw an insult in my direction. Thats hardly necessary.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a great movie, lol

congrats on the pca win

[stevepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

[/ QUOTE ]

So I was never really sure about this, but didn't Chan fold preflop for one bet getting like a bazillion to 1? It was limit right?

Steve

P.S. I really like the OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

what a great movie, lol

congrats on the pca win

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Thanks!

Steve

[MLG]

This is fantastic post. The flip side seems to be that people forget you can outplay people preflop as well. If the CO open raises and you push from the button with KQ (instead of say calling 1/6-1/7 of your stack) there are ALOT of hands your opponent will fold that he should call with. 22-66, AJ-A2. Guess what, you've outplayed your opponent.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
okay ya, but Matt Damon definitely did outplay Johnny Chan

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Don't forget he outplayed Marcel Luske as well.

[Ansky]

Yeah it was 300/600 limit. We aren't sure if it was pre or postflop, but Mike 4 bet chan and he folded.