Q9s marginal hand play

[KingOtter]

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I'm not sure I see the benefits of keeping BB in on the turn. He probably has a bad hand or nothing with 1 overcard I want him to pay right (he does a lot of the time)?

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The benefit is MP2's reaction to BB may be enough to tell you to drop your hand. As it is, MP2 will be reacting to your play and may c/r if he hit 2-pair on the turn, rather than betting out.

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Also, what do I do when I'm facing 2 on the turn because MP3 picks up a J and an OESD (or he has me crushed)? This puts me in a difficult situation because he's probably aware of how BB plays and now I'm worried about BB 3 betting AND being crushed by MP3.

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I don't get this question. You fold of course.

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However, if he raises the turn or donks me on the turn after I raised the flop shows more strength than a turn raise (to BBs turn bet) if I only called the flop.

Anyway, I checked behind on the turn.

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Nahh, it means the same thing. MP2 raising you or BB on the turn is a show of strength and you can get out of the hand immediately.

KO

[Aaron W.]

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Umm, aggression factor is a combination of raising and betting, not betting and calling, so I agree with the second sentence (more folds = less calls = higher aggression), but don't understand the first (aggression factor is betting and calling).

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To clarify: Aggression factor as the ratio of (bets/raises) to (calls) depends on both categories. So what I meant was that seeing high AF does not mean that villain value bets/raises at every possible instance. It could also mean that he's folding lots (instead of calling), so that when he's in a hand, he's got a pretty decent one, which he sometimes raises and sometimes calls. If he would raise AQ/KQ and just call with QJ, that would make a 2 AF.

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I don't know why you only chose those three hands as an example because he'll call with many draws, too. This means he's even more likely to bet a Q, since he has to to compensate for calling the draws.

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I did not mean to imply that these would be the only combination of hands that he would bet or call with. I'm simply pointing out that there could be hands that beat yours that he would not raise, especially if villain's AF were artificially bloated by weak-tight play (folding too much).

I think it's an absurd idea to try to divide his hand range into thirds and define the bottom third of his range to be the "calling" hands and the top two thirds to be the "raising" hands. The mixed AF is too vague to be read that way.

[brentlip]

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Also, what do I do when I'm facing 2 on the turn because MP3 picks up a J and an OESD (or he has me crushed)? This puts me in a difficult situation because he's probably aware of how BB plays and now I'm worried about BB 3 betting AND being crushed by MP3.

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I don't get this question. You fold of course.



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Yes, I would definately fold if this happenend. I may be biased here, but would he take this line with KJ and get me to fold the best hand?

[KingOtter]

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I think it's an absurd idea to try to divide his hand range into thirds and define the bottom third of his range to be the "calling" hands and the top two thirds to be the "raising" hands. The mixed AF is too vague to be read that way.

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Okay, now I'm REALLY confused, because you're saying it's absurd to do exactly what you did, not what I said. So maybe you're saying I shouldn't have taken the example literally.... umm, ok.

I don't think it is absurd to say he calls his draws more than his 'made' hands, therefore he has to bet his made hands more than his draws. I wasn't dividing them up or classifying them into top thirds and bottom thirds ... or whatever.

Is it highly likely he bets a top pair, good kicker there? I think so. Does the fact that he's calling mean he's more than likely drawing? I think so.

What would I do if I had KQ? Probably raise. This is micros. And I'd be quite happy taking it on the flop, or even the turn with it and not giving someone a chance to spike their ace on the river.

I've never said I'm a very good player. I'm a winning player, but I still don't consider myself very good. So I'm quite willing to be wrong about what the best move is.... or what his best move is. All I know is that when I give people chances to beat me, they do.

KO

[KingOtter]

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Also, what do I do when I'm facing 2 on the turn because MP3 picks up a J and an OESD (or he has me crushed)? This puts me in a difficult situation because he's probably aware of how BB plays and now I'm worried about BB 3 betting AND being crushed by MP3.

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I don't get this question. You fold of course.



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Yes, I would definately fold if this happenend. I may be biased here, but would he take this line with KJ and get me to fold the best hand?

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I don't know what he would do, I didn't play against him.. could this happen? yes, it has to me, quite a bit. I fold to heavy turn action and had the best hand.

Edit: And it's usually when I'm weak on the flop and just call with a top pair hand of some kind.

KO

[Aaron W.]

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I think it's an absurd idea to try to divide his hand range into thirds and define the bottom third of his range to be the "calling" hands and the top two thirds to be the "raising" hands. The mixed AF is too vague to be read that way.

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Okay, now I'm REALLY confused, because you're saying it's absurd to do exactly what you did, not what I said. So maybe you're saying I shouldn't have taken the example literally.... umm, ok.

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Yeah. I think my brain has been tired all day. I fell asleep in the middle of the day (ahhhh... the life of an academic) and now my mind is refreshed.

I'm still in favor of calling, but the previous argument isn't so coherent. I guess my gut instinct tells me to watch out when the tight player is in the pot.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

easiest preflop fold evar?

how are people playing this? i prefer raising than calling pf here