Comparison of online MTT structures

[burningyen]

In a fit of OCD I've put together a spreadsheet comparing the MTT structures at Ultimatebet, Full Tilt, Pokerstars, Party, Paradise, Pokerroom, and Bugsy's Club. In order to do an apples-to-apples comparison of the different starting stacks, blinds, antes and level lengths, I divided the cost of a round (SB + BB + a round of antes) for each level by the starting stack, sort of an inverse M calculation. For the sites that use 9-seat tables (Full Tilt and Pokerstars), I multiplied the cost of a round by 10/9 since you will see 10/9 more rounds per level. A truly anal comparison would account for differences in hands/hour, but hey, what do you want from me? Finally, I compared these numbers at the end of each hour of actual playing time -- i.e. not including breaks -- to account for the different level lengths.

I haven't looked at other sites, since I believe these are the most popular on 2+2. I included Bugsy's because I believe it has one of the best structures around. If you have a special request that I look at a particular site, then let me know by posting in this thread. If I get multiple requests for the same site, I'll take a look and post a comparison. I also didn't look at turbos or rebuys, which have different structures on some sites. Also, I couldn't tell where the dividing line was between the small and big buy-ins on Pokerroom. If you know, please tell me.

My abbreviations:
UBs: UB smaller than $100+9, 12-minute levels
UBb: UB $100+9 and bigger, 15-minute levels
BCs: Bugsy's $50+5 or smaller, 10-minute levels
BCb: Bugsy's $50+5 or bigger, 15-minute levels ($50+5s use either 10- or 15-minute levels)
PT: Party, 15-minute levels
PSs: Pokerstars smaller than $200+15, 15-minute levels
PSm: Pokerstars $200+15, 15-minute levels
PSb: Pokerstars bigger than $200+15, 20-minute levels
FTs: Full Tilt smaller than $100+9, 10-minute levels
FTb: Full Tilt $100+9 or bigger, 10-minute levels
PDs: Paradise smaller than $20+0, 10-minute levels
PDm: Paradise smaller than $30+0, 12-minute levels (MTTs smaller than $20+0 can use either the PDs or PDm structure)
PDb: Paradise $30+0 or bigger, 15-minute levels
PRs: Pokerroom small buy-ins, 12-minute levels
PRb: Pokerroom big buy-ins, 15-minute levels

So here's a snapshot of what I've found in terms of the effective cost of a round as a percentage of the starting stack by the end of each hour of play:

Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7
UBs..........6........47.......260.....1333....666 7...33,333
UBb..........2........12........66......200......8 00.....3000...12,000
BCs.........10........60.......390.....3500
BCb..........3........19........60......220......7 50.....3500
PT............8........45.......150......600.....2 250....9000
PSs.........11........61.......289.....1156....577 8
PSm.........7........37.......173......693.....346 7
PSb..........3........13........60......173......5 20.....1733....5200
FTs.........11........78.......308.....1156....462 2
FTb..........8........58........231.....867.....34 67
PDs.........20.......267.....2667
PDm........15.......113......800.....5333
PDb.........10........57.......267.....1067....533 3
PRs.........15........80.......300.....1200....600 0...20,000
PRb..........6........24........72.......240.....7 20.....2400....7200

I know this doesn't tell you everything you need to know about the structures, and it certainly doesn't tell you which MTTs are the best values. But I think it does give you a decent basis for comparison of the structures.

[burningyen]

Figured I'd add Bodog, which also uses 9-seat tables:

BDs: small buy-ins, 12-minute levels
BDb: big buy-ins, 15-minute levels (I don't know where the dividing line is)

Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7
BDs.........10........67.......333.....2000..10,00 0..50,000
BDb......... 7........33.......133......500.....2000....6667... 26,667

[Seadood228]

Excellent Excellent post. Thanks a bunch.

[burningyen]

Here are the numbers for Absolute, a 9-seater site with 10-minute levels:

Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7
AB...........11.......89.......322.....1156....433 3

[Angle_Smurf]

FWIW being this is my 2nd post, I've kept something similar on a spreadsheet as well......I'm kind of an excel nerd. One difference being that the tournament structures I compare are only for smaller buy-ins (I usually play in the $20-$50 range).

My data differs slightly from Burningyen's being that I only look at the big blind size in comparison with initial starting chips before each break up until the 3rd break. It was interesting and helpful to me in comparing my spreadsheet with Burningyen's but again I'm also an analytical weenie.

Being somewhat unfamilar with the working dynamics of this forum, I'm not sure how to attach an external excel spreadsheet to a post. If anyone would like to see the spreadsheet(s) I have, feel free to provide instructions on how I can do so on this forum or else if you use Yahoo! Messenger, I could share them with you. If your profile on 2+2 doesn't list your Yahoo! username, please provide it so I can IM if you like.

[justT]

Empire's guaranteed tourneys (buyin as low as $6) have a very slow structure

Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7
EP...........5........23.......60......150......45 0......1200....3000

(note the numbers above are the same for any Party tourney that has 20 minute levels )

I think Stars added some new levels after you ran this, it looks a bit slower and actually quite close to Party's
Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7
PSs.........11.......61.......228.....867....2889. ...8667

[burningyen]

I've updated my chart to reflect new numbers for Party and Stars:

My abbreviations:
UBs: UB smaller than $100+9, 12-minute levels
UBb: UB $100+9 and bigger, 15-minute levels
BCs: Bugsy's $50+5 or smaller, 10-minute levels
BCb: Bugsy's $50+5 or bigger, 15-minute levels ($50+5s use either 10- or 15-minute levels)
PTs: Party smaller than $150, 15-minute levels
PTm: Party $150, 20-minute levels
PTb: Party $200, 20-minute levels
PSs: Pokerstars smaller than $200+15, 15-minute levels
PSm: Pokerstars $200+15, 15-minute levels
PSb: Pokerstars bigger than $200+15, 20-minute levels
FTs: Full Tilt smaller than $100+9, 10-minute levels
FTb: Full Tilt $100+9 or bigger, 10-minute levels
PDs: Paradise smaller than $20+0, 10-minute levels
PDm: Paradise smaller than $30+0, 12-minute levels (MTTs smaller than $20+0 can use either the PDs or PDm structure)
PDb: Paradise $30+0 or bigger, 15-minute levels
PRs: Pokerroom small buy-ins, 12-minute levels
PRb: Pokerroom big buy-ins, 15-minute levels
BDs: small buy-ins, 12-minute levels
BDb: big buy-ins, 15-minute levels (I don't know where the dividing line is)
AB: Absolute, 10-minute levels

So here's a snapshot of what I've found in terms of the effective cost of a round as a percentage of the starting stack by the end of each hour of play:

Hour.........1.........2.........3.........4...... ...5.........6.........7.........8
UBs..........6........47.......260.....1333....666 7...33,333
UBb..........2........12........66......200......8 00.....3000...12,000
BCs.........10........60.......390.....3500
BCb..........3........19........60......220......7 50.....3500
PTs...........8........45.......150.....600.....22 50....9000
PTm..........5........23........60.....150......45 0.....1200.....3000...9000
PTb...........3........15........40.....100......3 00......800......2000...6000
PSs.........11........61.......228......867....288 9....8667
PSm.........7........37.......137......520.....173 3....5200
PSb..........3........13........60......137......3 47.....1040.....2600...5200
FTs.........11........78.......308.....1156....462 2
FTb..........8........58........231.....867.....34 67
PDs.........20.......267.....2667
PDm........15.......113......800.....5333
PDb.........10........57.......267.....1067....533 3
PRs.........15........80.......300.....1200....600 0...20,000
PRb..........6........24........72.......240.....7 20.....2400....7200
BDs.........10........67.......333.....2000..10,00 0..50,000
BDb..........7........33.......133......500.....20 00....6667...26,667
AB...........11.......89.......322.....1156....433 3

[snoopdarr]

I don't find the format of this comparision very intituitive. I've been looking at this question for some time, with the objective of creating an way to more absloutely rank structures, of both online (and evuentually live) tournaments. What I did was find the fractional blind per hand you pay in a tournament, and calculate how long it takes for your starting stack to be paid in blinds. The result is given as as a single number for each format. Starting stacks, blind structure, level time, seats/table and hands/hour are the variables. 60 hands/hour was used as a constant for online, but using this formulation, it can be used to compare live tourns, and perhaps even SNG's and rebuy's... is there anything fundamentally wrong with this thinking? The results are basically the same as burningyen's, but imo more intitutive. I was just going to post it all, but saw this thread beat me to it!

[zoobird]

Well, you've stolen some of my thunder with this. I've been looking at something similar for a while, but with a different purpose. I think a logical conclusion of what you've done is that M isn't always M. An M of 8 on one site doesn't mean the same thing at all as an M of 8 at another site. I think the data you've presented is a good starting point for creating some sort of 'M multiplier' to use at each site. Actually, I think to really get it right you need a different M multiplier for each level at each site, since what you really care about is the structure for the remainder of the tournament at any given time(particularly the next few levels), not the entire tournament.

[burningyen]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't find the format of this comparision very intituitive.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm happy to hear suggestions for improvement. I have a lot of raw data that could be converted to some other presentation format.

[ QUOTE ]
What I did was find the fractional blind per hand you pay in a tournament, and calculate how long it takes for your starting stack to be paid in blinds. The result is given as as a single number for each format. Starting stacks, blind structure, level time, seats/table and hands/hour are the variables.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how this would be useful, but I could be missing something. If you factor in the late stage blinds and antes when calculating the fractional cost per hand, you may be factoring blinds and antes that may never be reached because of the number of players. If you only factor in the blinds and antes up until the stack is blinded off, you're missing information on how the tournament would progress after that point.

[ QUOTE ]
60 hands/hour was used as a constant for online, but using this formulation, it can be used to compare live tourns, and perhaps even SNG's and rebuy's...

[/ QUOTE ]
60 hands/hr seems pessimistic for online play and optimistic for live play. IMHO it would be a mistake to ignore the big difference in hands/hr between the two.

[ QUOTE ]
The results are basically the same as burningyen's, but imo more intitutive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Since your method would simply produce a number in units of time (how long it takes to be blinded off), I could see how your results might be easier to grasp. But again, I'm not sure if they would necessarily be more useful.