KQo in EP

[n.s.]

I virtually always raise KQo UTG in the live games I play in. I figure if the raise itself is 0 or slightly +EV, then the metagame considerations make it worthwhile. Some nitty weak players seem to think that KQ is a "trap hand" and when they see you raise UTG with it, they'll think you are much more aggressive/bad then you really are (I had one guy actually make fun of me for raising KQs in the CO after a couple of limpers!).

Plus if it really doesn't matter much whether you fold, raise, or call it (which is 2+2 consensus after much debate) then might as well raise, 'cause raising is more fun!

[bernie]

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Some nitty weak players seem to think that KQ is a "trap hand" and when they see you raise UTG with it, they'll think you are much more aggressive/bad then you really are (I had one guy actually make fun of me for raising KQs in the CO after a couple of limpers!).


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Note that they say this as they coldcall with KTo.
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[XmasXmas]

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i think it's the general consensus of these forums that there isn't much difference among raising or calling or folding KQo in EP with a lot depending on how you play post flop.

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FYP

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thanks chesspain. you caught me sticking a little bit of my personal bias in my post as i really like KQ [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[XmasXmas]

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KQ off and AJ off are the 2 hands that are giving me the most trouble in EP pre flop. I've read very compelling arguments on this site for calling, folding, and raising with these hands. I agonize over what to do with these hands way more than AK or JJ, both pre flop and after.
Oh, and by the way, all this talk about "automatically folding this hand to a raise cuz I know I'm beat" is for 2+2 reader consumption only; very few people are able to b1tch fold this automatically to any raise everytime. How many players do you see fold EP calls to one simple raise with the average number of callers we experience at low limit?
To me, this play is table dependant (aggresive table I tend to pitch this believe it or not)and player dependent if raised. I don't get excited if I look down and see KQ off and AJ off until MP and there have been no raises. I'd rather have 88, its easier to get away from.

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if you're agonizing over it, just fold. some things are clear cut, and you'll see that manifested in these forums when someone posts a hand, and everyone says the same thing over and over again. when there's heavy debate, a lot will come down to specific table situations, and your overall game plan (nut peddling rock that occasionally works the respect vs. an observant opponent, a lag that pushes a lot of hands hard and is difficult to read, or a tricky tag that mixes in different hands/ways of playing them).

or if you really can't decide, try randomizing it. maybe play only a black king and a red queen and fold the rest, maybe base it on time, every third KQo, or some randomization of your own design.

[HoneyBadger]

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or if you really can't decide, try randomizing it. maybe play only a black king and a red queen and fold the rest, maybe base it on time, every third KQo, or some randomization of your own design.

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What would that do for you? I can see the point if you call it 2/3rd and raise it 1/3rd. But with folding/calling it's just silly. You simply cut down 2/3rd of the hands you play, as if you had been dealt 27o magically 2/3rd of the time you get KQo. There's no variantion in play here, nor is there any deceptive value. Either you think it's +EV to play at the current table, or you don't. There's no point in flipping a coin to decide that. Now you could do this for raising/limping as it puts off your opponents as to what you're holding.

Yao gives this advice in his book for KQo (e/m/l):

first-in: limp;fold raise raise
limpers: call call;raise raise
raised fi: fold fold fold;reraise late
raised limp: x fold fold;call in loose

So according to him it's either a limp or a fold in early position, a raise in other first-in situations, and a fold against a raise. I usually limp it from early position on a typical loose table. Also note that KQs is much stronger. There he suggests a limp or raise in early position, and in most other cases a raise or a cold call (unless you're up against one single raiser)

[Haupt_234]

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You shouldn't be folding this for 1 more bet behind you. 2 bets, yes. However, you should be folding it to most raises if you're going to be calling 2 cold. If it's an LP opening for a raise, then it's usually a raise/fold spot.


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I can honestly say I hardley ever 3bet KQo even if I think it will isolate my opponent. Even if he is a maniac... What spots do you do this in? How bad does your opponent have to be?

I, of course, isolate with something like AJo/ATo against the right type of player but that is because they have SD value.

But I can only see 3betting KQo if you have position, believe you can get it HU or close to it, and view your opponent as weak and willing to laydown ace high after peeling the flop- even on a dry board.

Haupt_234

[SMACK BOOTY]

If I see a player to my right consistantly raising with KQo and AJo from EP, i am going to change my response to his raises (ie...more re-raises to isolate instead of calling or even folding).
Looking at card frequency, if you raise with JJ+ and KQ+, almost 3/4ths of your raising hands do not include a pair.If the flop comes ragged, I am going to jump on you like Shaq on a cheeseburger. Because of your raising range, I'm more likely to re-raise with a wider range of hands than I would a tighter player. One thing you don't want to see holding KQo is a raise behind you. You have concerns even if the flop hits you. How much fun is that?
I have experienced this phenomenon live at my local B&M when I used to raise with AJo from EP (I play 10/20 there vs 2/4 and 3/6 online). The more observant players started raising me back and/or jumping on the flop when ragged because they knew 2/3rds of my raises were non-pairs. I now do more limping with AJo live but look to do more checkraising if I hit the flop. I think this is the way to play KQo also IMO.

[Mattafuga]

I'll cold call 2 bets with KQo if I have position. If I've limped with it in EP, and it gets raised and re-raised, you can't cold call those 2 bets because there is a high chance that you're dominated by one of the two.

I think the same thing goes for raising in EP. If you make it 2 bets, and someone behind you makes it 3, I'd assume you're dominated, but I can't fold to that extra bet. But even if I connect on the flop I'm still concerned and looking for a way to get out of the hand against some aggressive play.

[bernie]

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If I see a player to my right consistantly raising with KQo and AJo from EP, i am going to change my response to his raises (ie...more re-raises to isolate instead of calling or even folding).
Looking at card frequency, if you raise with JJ+ and KQ+, almost 3/4ths of your raising hands do not include a pair.If the flop comes ragged, I am going to jump on you like Shaq on a cheeseburger. Because of your raising range, I'm more likely to re-raise with a wider range of hands than I would a tighter player. One thing you don't want to see holding KQo is a raise behind you. You have concerns even if the flop hits you. How much fun is that?
I have experienced this phenomenon live at my local B&M when I used to raise with AJo from EP (I play 10/20 there vs 2/4 and 3/6 online). The more observant players started raising me back and/or jumping on the flop when ragged because they knew 2/3rds of my raises were non-pairs. I now do more limping with AJo live but look to do more checkraising if I hit the flop. I think this is the way to play KQo also IMO.

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Why wouldn't they raise when you just limp then? After all, it's a much bigger sign of a weak hand. Just how wide would you open up your 3 bet range? Just PPs?

How often do you think you'll really see him raise those hands in a session? Basically, you're saying you'll call down with any pair if a face card doesn't hit. Or maybe try and make a move with overcards after the flop.

If someone wants to isolate me when my bottom range of raising is AJo or KQo, good luck. People that do this tend to really pay off well when I do have a hand. They end up marrying any pair just in case. It still amazes me sometimes that, being one of the tightest players in my room, I get 4 coldcallers to an EP raise.

Your problem likely lies in lack of postflop play with the hands. If someone is constantly isolating you, you adjust to them. It's not a good idea to isolate a 'thinking' TAG.

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[bernie]

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You shouldn't be folding this for 1 more bet behind you. 2 bets, yes. However, you should be folding it to most raises if you're going to be calling 2 cold. If it's an LP opening for a raise, then it's usually a raise/fold spot.


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I can honestly say I hardley ever 3bet KQo even if I think it will isolate my opponent. Even if he is a maniac... What spots do you do this in? How bad does your opponent have to be?

I, of course, isolate with something like AJo/ATo against the right type of player but that is because they have SD value.

But I can only see 3betting KQo if you have position, believe you can get it HU or close to it, and view your opponent as weak and willing to laydown ace high after peeling the flop- even on a dry board.

Haupt_234

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You kind of answered your own question with your last paragraph.

Other than blind steal stuff, 3 bet a loose LP raiser/chronic stealer. I notice some will go as far as HJ now. KQ is usually well above their average hand their raising with. This is even more true with maniacs. If you're able to, you can open up your range even more.

As far as maniacs, the earlier the position, the more you have to account for all the players behind you and how they've been playing him. Also if you have loose blinds if it's LP, but many will also realize who you are 3 betting. So if it's a tight table, or a table that plays tight to you or just to 3 bets in general, you can re-raise a maniac a little more liberally. But you still have to be aware of how the table might adjust to you if you do this alot. Especially if you're showing down less than marginal 3 bet holdings.

And yes, sometimes a Maniac will have a big hand. Doesn't mean your 3 bet was wrong given his possible range of hands. Those are the fun days: When he's showing every crap hand possible until you isolate him and he shows big pairs over and over. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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