The infamous river bluff

Chipspin · #1 07-12-2006, 03:45 AM

Villain has a backwards playing style: he seems to call down when he has something, and c/r or bet with nothing. But he never seems to fold until either someone reraises him, or he gets to the river and has nothing. He has c/r'd me twice in this session and one time showed down Q-high and the other time a small pocket pair.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.40 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks (with the intention of raising the river).

River: (3.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises...

Final Pot: 6.20 BB

Comments on all streets welcome, but I'm hoping to discuss the river raise bluff. Btw, I don't ever do this. Normally I think river bluffs are a mistake; I just really thought villain was out of line and the pot was small enough for villain to let go of his hand pretty easily.

n.s. · #2 07-12-2006, 04:07 AM

You seem to have a pretty good read on this guy - how does he play his draws? It's a pretty draw-heavy flop and I would guess that a guy like this would CR you here with a flush or straight draw, but I dunno.

As is, how do you know that he isn't calling down with some piece of the board? It seems like players that like to go aggro with nothing will usually do it on the cheap streets. If he's got something like 78 and wants to just call down, your turn check-through may be enough to get him to value-bet the river, and I think he's going to have a hard time not calling for one more when the board is so non-threatening. If he's a thinking player, he'll realize that you wouldn't check through the turn on such a juicy board if you had a real hand, and that your PF raise makes you very unlikely to have picked up anything on the river.

So I'm guess I'm saying that maybe this isn't the right spot. I think this move would be better if he had c/red the flop and bet the turn and river (consistent with your read that he has nothing).

XmasXmas · #3 07-12-2006, 04:52 AM

the problem w/ this is that you're not representing anything. if your opponent has anything at all and is a thinking player (which i don't know if he is or not), he should be calling this raise.

i'd look at the board, wonder why in the world villain (you, from the other guy's perspective), would check a drawy board on the turn. there isn't a remotely near unbreakable hand that you should be raising from MP unless you're the type to be raising 67s there.

i'd rather bet the turn, and bet the river (see haupt's hand) than check and raise the river.

SixForty · #4 07-12-2006, 01:23 PM

Like others said, this is a tough one due to board texture. If Villain actually stops and thinks, he'd see that your play really doesn't make any sense at all. Unless maybe you raised PF with 44. If he has any piece, he calls you down.

That being said, it simply becomes a question of how often Villain has a piece of this board here. You're getting 2.1-1 here on your bluff - if it successful more often than 1 in 3 times, then it's a good bluff. Will Villain have some piece of this board more often than 2 times in 3? This becomes a factor of his hand range (which is probably pretty wide here) and your read on how he played the hand.

From the sounds of your read, it's probably pretty close. I don't mind it - I could go either way.

citizenwind · #5 07-12-2006, 01:32 PM

It's really read dependant. You seem confident in your read and your reasoning is decent, so taking a shot at a guy if you think he's FOS is fine.

Mattafuga · #6 07-12-2006, 02:10 PM

I don't get it... If I was villain, I am confused as hell. So confused I'm calling you with any pair whether it be top, bottom or pocket.

If he loves to bluff checkraise, and you felt you could make the bluff this hand, I would continue to represent strength throughout the hand. I would bet the turn and river, and if he checkraised the river I would 3 bet it and use that as my bluff if I felt this was the right hand. Yeah, it costs 2 more bets, but it wins 2 more if it works.

And I think that that bluff would work more often than the one you attempted in that position against that villain.

Not to mention, are you sure that was the right spot? You said he checks and calls when he is strong, and bets and checkraises when he is weak, so according to your read, he is potentially showing strength throughout the hand.

TitanFan · #7 07-12-2006, 02:29 PM

Haha, sounds like a vengeance raise to me! Smack him around for his foul play!! . . . haha, but in all seriousness I think this is a good play given the readings . . . he seems like the type that would try to steal the pot with nothing on the end after the turn was chacked thru.

EDIT: is he pretty loose preflop?

Chipspin · #8 07-12-2006, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'd rather bet the turn, and bet the river (see haupt's hand) than check and raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally, I completely agree with this logic. Completely. But while I think K-high might be ahead here, I still don't want to call a c/r K-high, regardless of my opponent.
And the fact that he called the flop didn't signal anything to me. I saw him call the flop previously with 7-high, two overcards.

[ QUOTE ]
You're not representing anything with this raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Except possibly 55 or 44. That's what makes this move questionable, at best. However, my opponent seems to be a tier 1 sort of player. I don't think he's looking at the board and trying to put me on a hand. In his mind it's something like "he raised for a big bet?! he must have a hand!"

[ QUOTE ]
Vengeance raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. Although I was destroying him at the time.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #9 07-12-2006, 03:08 PM

Calling is a better play than raising this river.

Chipspin · #10 07-12-2006, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Calling is a better play than raising this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I thought about this afterwards, and was wondering if anyone would say so. If he's got a pair, he's probably calling my river raise. The only time calling is incorrect, is if he's got A-high, which I think he would have laid down to my bluff.