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#31
07-08-2006, 07:49 PM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
Your scenario was about choosing between two identically qualified candidates, right? AA laws basically force the company to hire the black one, and you are saying this is unfortunate because race is being forced upon the employer as a factor when it shouldn't be. [/ QUOTE ] AA laws don't force you to hire the black guy when all things are equal. That is a common misconception, and it may be different in some states due to local laws, but as far as I know, AA simply attempts to prevent you from discrimination due to race, creed, gender, etc. If you hire the most qualified candidate, or close to equal candidate, you aren't going to get in any trouble under AA, no matter the colors involved. However....if you pass over a black guy with a doctorate in medicine and 10 years residency for a white ambulance driver for the hospital administrator position....then you're probably going to be explaining it to a judge. 
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#32
07-08-2006, 08:16 PM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
Who exactly runs the company? You, or your employees? Maybe it's just me, but if it were my company, my employees are going to follow my marching orders, not vice versa. [/ QUOTE ] It's not a case of who's running the show. Rather, it's a question of what works best. If my company works best with white supremacist bigots on the payroll, why shouldn't I be able to hire them if they don't let their bigotry disenfranchise customers or create other problems? Do I OWE jobs to the general public? I thought a job was an arrangement discussed between two independent parties based on mutual interests and not a God-given birthright.
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#33
07-08-2006, 08:35 PM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Who could argue? Too easy to abuse. [/ QUOTE ] Lets consider someone who does abuse it and never hires blacks because of pure racism. Does he gain from this? If so, why? I mean if he's foregoing opportunities to hire good workers and leaving them for his competitors, then how can that be good for him in the long run? If it's not good for him, then why not just let him shoot himself in the foot and have him find out the hard way? [/ QUOTE ] I am not of the free market cures all ills crowd Darryl. Even so, if the labor pool is sufficient that I can discriminate on the basis of race, I will not feel any effects, however the victim of my racism may, moreso if racism is endemic to the area and/or jobs are in short supply.
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#34
07-08-2006, 08:46 PM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Your scenario was about choosing between two identically qualified candidates, right? AA laws basically force the company to hire the black one, and you are saying this is unfortunate because race is being forced upon the employer as a factor when it shouldn't be. [/ QUOTE ] AA laws don't force you to hire the black guy when all things are equal. That is a common misconception, and it may be different in some states due to local laws, but as far as I know, AA simply attempts to prevent you from discrimination due to race, creed, gender, etc. If you hire the most qualified candidate, or close to equal candidate, you aren't going to get in any trouble under AA, no matter the colors involved. However....if you pass over a black guy with a doctorate in medicine and 10 years residency for a white ambulance driver for the hospital administrator position....then you're probably going to be explaining it to a judge. [/ QUOTE ] What would AA say about an employer hiring for 10 positions, has 30 equal candidates 10 of whom are black, but hires all non-blacks (say theres an Asian and an Indian and Middle Eastern hired in there)? Is that prima facie evidence of discrimination? Im asking because in 35 years of business I have seen only one hiring decision made based on race/ethnicity and that was to hire an equally qualified black woman in a small company that encouraged diversity to begin with.
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#35
07-09-2006, 12:04 AM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
What would AA say about an employer hiring for 10 positions, has 30 equal candidates 10 of whom are black, but hires all non-blacks (say theres an Asian and an Indian and Middle Eastern hired in there)? Is that prima facie evidence of discrimination? Im asking because in 35 years of business I have seen only one hiring decision made based on race/ethnicity and that was to hire an equally qualified black woman in a small company that encouraged diversity to begin with. [/ QUOTE ] Well said. An employer that doesn't understand that one should hire on the basis of merit rather than racial preference is not going to stay in business very long.
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#36
07-09-2006, 08:10 AM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
If my company works best with white supremacist bigots on the payroll, why shouldn't I be able to hire them if they don't let their bigotry disenfranchise customers or create other problems? [/ QUOTE ] If you can establish that white supremacist bigotry is a key "qualification" required to function in your company, then of course, you could use that in the selection process. [ QUOTE ] Do I OWE jobs to the general public? [/ QUOTE ] You don't owe jobs to anyone. The only thing expected of you is to not discriminate against on the basis of color, and instead to select on the basis of merit. Remember, nobody is forcing you to hire blacks. If you sincerely have a negative view of them in the workplace, all you have to do is go with the lilly white applicants and claim that they are more qualified. If someone wanted to file a dsicrimination charge, the burden of proof would be on them, and as qualification merit would be vague, it wouldn't be an easy case for them unless it was overwhelmingly obvious case of discrimination.
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#37
07-09-2006, 08:14 AM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
What would AA say about an employer hiring for 10 positions, has 30 equal candidates 10 of whom are black, but hires all non-blacks (say theres an Asian and an Indian and Middle Eastern hired in there)? Is that prima facie evidence of discrimination? [/ QUOTE ] AA wouldn't "say" anything. It would depend on whether or not any of those applicants filed a complaint of discrimination, and since Title VII and the EEOC prohibits the discrimination against all races, and doesn't institute any minimum quotas, they would have to show that you discriminated against them solely on the basis of color and not merit. As you've said they were all equally qualified, and assuming they couldn't show otherwise, you'd be fine.
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#38
07-09-2006, 09:22 AM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] If my company works best with white supremacist bigots on the payroll, why shouldn't I be able to hire them if they don't let their bigotry disenfranchise customers or create other problems? [/ QUOTE ] If you can establish that white supremacist bigotry is a key "qualification" required to function in your company, then of course, you could use that in the selection process [/ QUOTE ] He didn't specify that white supremacy is a qualification. It might happen that the most qualified people who apply for these partciular jobs happen to all be white supremacists. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do I OWE jobs to the general public? [/ QUOTE ] You don't owe jobs to anyone. The only thing expected of you is to not discriminate against on the basis of color, and instead to select on the basis of merit. [/ QUOTE ] Is this expected of me when I decide who to be friends with? Or who to buy stuff from? Who is doing the expecting, and what business is it of thiers? Are there to be punishments for those who don't have black friends? Or those who don't shop at a black-owned grocery store? If I don't owe jobs to anyone, why are my job-granting decisions to be scrutinized? [ QUOTE ] Remember, nobody is forcing you to hire blacks. If you sincerely have a negative view of them in the workplace, all you have to do is go with the lilly white applicants and claim that they are more qualified. If someone wanted to file a dsicrimination charge, the burden of proof would be on them, and as qualification merit would be vague, it wouldn't be an easy case for them unless it was overwhelmingly obvious case of discrimination. [/ QUOTE ] So you admit the system you advocate is bogus and useless?
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#39
07-09-2006, 04:38 PM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
Discrimination is a thing of the past......
60 yrs ago, we'd call 100 white guys with clubs, chasing 1 black the KKK. Today we call it the PGA Tour. Go to any tour event, and you'll find 20K white people cheering on 1 black guy to beat 100 white guys.......... 
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#40
07-10-2006, 07:31 AM
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Re: A few thoughts on rascism / affirmative action
[ QUOTE ]
If I don't owe jobs to anyone, why are my job-granting decisions to be scrutinized? [/ QUOTE ] If you feel you owe jobs in this example to under-qualified white supremacists instead of more qualified blacks due to their skin color alone, I guess that is your own personal choice. [ QUOTE ] So you admit the system you advocate is bogus and useless? [/ QUOTE ] I advocate hiring the best person for the job, regardless of race, creed, gender, etc. If you find that bogus or useless, then I don't know what else to say.
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