Floor ruling - who's fault is this?

young Nut · #1 06-20-2006, 08:20 PM

25+13 add-on tournament today at the Peppermill. We are in the third blind round and I am in the big blind. 3 limpers in late position and the sb completes.

I am dealt 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and check

Flop: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, and I look down at my stack to contemplate how much I want to bet, then i begin stacking the correct chip amounts (as I do this I hear the old lady on the other side of the table check.) I fire out a bet. Dealer stops me and says, "what are you doing...it has already checked around?"

I clearly never made any check motion or said check...in fact I made no sound at all. The guy to the right of me, in the sb, was wondering what was going on as well. So the dealer calls the floor over, and this is the floors ruling:

The lady said that it was my fault for not stopping the action going around the table once I heard it. She said that because they all checked behind me, there was 'significant action' and that I could no longer bet. So it seems to me that she was blaming me for not controlling the actions of the other players acting out of turn. I think this is ridiculous.

I only heard the one old lady check, I heard no one else check. Many players check out of turn all the time so I just chalked that ladies check up to inexperience.

The ruling made me pull back my bet and let the action check around as it did. The turn put another high card and heart on the board and I was forced out by a bet from a big stack.

Any ideas or knowledge of how this should have been ruled or whose responsibility it is? I think it's pretty ignorant to blame a player.

RR · #2 06-20-2006, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's pretty ignorant to blame a player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is blaming anyone. You can protect or not protect your action. If you don't protect it, you will lose it if the players behind you act. You have to pay attention at the table so you can speak up to protect yourself.

fellfold · #3 06-20-2006, 08:30 PM

Something similar happened to me a while back. Live game at a casino. Two limpers, I call in the SB, raised pre-flop by the BB. The cards are not really important. Flop comes, I take a second to look at it, look down at my stack, reach for some chips, hear the BB yell "CHECK!", as my chips hit the felt the second limper (who was a dealer/floor at the casino and also drunk) makes a big stink that I had seen three people check behind me. I was too busy moving my chips to see what had happened, but apparently the two limpers instachecked behind the BB. I start to protest. She immediately calls for a floor decision, who decides I have to pull my bet back.

The dealer burns. Deals the turn.

The BB yells, "CHECK!".

AThermopyle · #4 06-20-2006, 08:32 PM

BB checks,

and I look down at my stack to contemplate how much I want to bet,

then i begin stacking the correct chip amounts (as I do this I hear the old lady on the other side of the table check.)

I fire out a bet.

Most clubs have a "same day" rule.

LasVegasMichael · #5 06-20-2006, 08:38 PM

Tough situation. An argument could be made either way. One could say that your hand moved or something, as many people check non-verbally.

If the action continued past you, I would have immediately said something.

Most dealers catch this and take the action back, but occasionally, there can be distractions that can cause a dealer to miss the action of one player, and it is further compounded when action continues past the player.

The best way to avoid this in the future is to immediately announce "Bet", and then figure out how much you want to bet.

Good luck!

psandman · #6 06-20-2006, 08:52 PM

One thing you always have to keep in mind is that there are quite a number of ways that players "check" and many of them are quite subtle.

It is not uncommon for a player to not even realize that he made a motion that the dealer and the other players may interpret as a check. You say you were stacking your chips. Well some players check by picking up a chips and giving a single tap of the stack (setting them down). Another problem that one that drives me nuts as a dealer is the shrug of the shoulders with the a slight hand movement. Some people do this to indicate that they are thinking and others do it to indicate a check. I routinely have players who check wiggling a single finger. Well when its there turn i never no if they were checking or making an unconscious motion of the finger.

Its not as cut and dry as declaring yourself 100% blame free from the situation. You need to be aware of the whole table so that you can stop the action if your action is misinterpretted.

chube · #7 06-21-2006, 12:45 AM

I usually say "bet" when the action comes to me and then comtemplate my bet amount. Simple, clear, and avoids the avoids the above situation, which I have seen similar situations happen.

young Nut · #8 06-21-2006, 01:40 AM

AThermopyle,

I understand not taking too long, but I guess you misunderstood the length of time I spent thinking and then firing the bet out. Tops 10 seconds thinking and then 10 seconds stacking the bet amount. I wasn't sitting there staring people down and trying to see through their soul. I don't think its very uncommon or out of line to take 10-20 seconds to act.

all,
I guess I should have said bet or announced a bet amount before stacking the chips. The problem is I am generally a very quiet/shy player in live games, especially NL tournaments. I kind of clam up and just play my game without much speaking. I just feel that it is the dealer responsibility to keep the game in line. Most dealers ask if you checked if it is ambiguous. They usually kind of motion their hand towards you and wait for a response. The dealer I had was kind of in lala land the whole tournament.

RR · #9 06-21-2006, 01:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think its very uncommon or out of line to take 10-20 seconds to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an eternity at a poker table. If you are going to take this long you should ask for time. This situation isn't really a matter of acting too slowly, it is a matter of not paying attention. When players after you act you have an obligation to speak up to protect your action. I can't speak to your particulat situation, but I have seen many players that are new to a B&M look down at their chips to decide how much to bet and are completly unaware fo what is happening at the table.

In another thread someone claimed that B&M happens much faster than online and was ridiculed. Obviously online moves faster; however, until one gets used to it B&M moves too fast for someone that is new to B&M. There are a lot of different things one must be aware of in a B&M; pot size, protecting your hand, protecting your action, etc.

smoore · #10 06-21-2006, 02:25 AM

Randy, this is something I've been thinking about lately. When I haven't acted and I hear, "check" behind me...

What should I do? My immediate reaction in a situation like this is to simply say, "Wait!" Probably with a hand motion like I'm waiting to be called on in elementary school with my upraised hand somewhere over the table.

Should that be sufficient? Can I eliminate the hand action?

Yes, I'm a B&M n00b.