Call down this lagtard?

[why4duck]

4-8 B&M; table's tight/passive in most places. Villain's a prototypical lagtard. For the last few rounds he's either hitting the flop big or backing into ridiculous draws every other hand.

Table folds to hero in CO w/ AJo - raise. Folds to lagtard in BB who calls.

Flop (4 SB): 3 5 5 rainbow. BB checks, hero bets, BB raises, hero 3 bets, BB 4 bets, hero calls.

Turn (6 BB): brick. BB bets, hero?

I know lots will say that a call or raise here is spewing, but the c/r, 4 bet on the flop smacks of desperation. No way villain doesn't 3 bet PF w/ a bigger A or a pocket pair heads up. With a 5 he's check raising the turn for sure. Given my read a better play may be to call the flop c/r and raise the turn, but I'm pretty sure this guy will fire every round on a bluff, including a 3 bet on the turn. And, yes, with most players I would've just called the flop c/r and folded the turn UI.

[dgillyerek]

How often is lagtard check raising and going 4 bets on a dry board like this? I can't imagine being ahead here, ever. I'd fold to the turn lead and expect lagtard to have a PP or some crap like 9 5 off. But I suck at poker

[Nick Royale]

Just call down from the flop check/raise. Let him keep bluff at it.

[why4duck]

How's this: on flop, board's 9 9 6 rainbow, I'm holding 92s in BB, lagtard's on button, 2 callers between (maybe 4 SB). I donk, EP folds, MP calls, lagtard raises, call, call. Turn's a 7, check to lagtard, call, fold - river's a T, I make crying call, lagtard turns over A8. Not the same hand, but it gives you an idea of his range.

[tsrcess]

wow, i don't understand all the action with a,j. it's not like a,j can't be beat here with 2,2 etc. not to mention even a,q. if i'm c/r on the flop with a decent unmade hand in steal position, i might call down, but to tell you the truth, it's usually a losing call down, so, i might fold too if i don't improve on the turn. depends i would feel a little better with a,k or a.q for a complete calldown...

[Grease]

If he is a total LAGtard, just call the c/r and call him down.

My first priority against guys like this is get to showdown.

If I improve on the way, I pop a raise up, but I'm sure AJo is better than his almost random hand, so I take this to the river.

[why4duck]

Never? I dunno, the 4 bet from this player screamed "I have NOTHING" to me. Honestly, the guy's range over the 2-3 hours I played with him was ridiculous. He would've been spewing if he wasn't getting ungodly lucky.

Partial results:

<font color="white"> He didn't have a 5 or a pocket pair </font>

[why4duck]

Not a question of whether AJ can be beat, but whether it's likely that it is. I thought the flop 3 bet was reasonable to get a free look at the river. Again, his 4 bet seemed to be an obvious (possibly semi-) bluff, too - there is no possiblity this player doesn't wait for the turn with a 5. So, given that he's not holding a PP or a big ace (heads up there would've been a PF reraise if that was his holding - I've seen him 3 bet AQo and raise EP w/ 55) what's that leave that I'm behind to that's worth a 4 bet?

[crunchy1]

duck,

Identifying your villian as a "prototypical lagtard" is not going to convince a message board that your read was so great that this is an easy place to call down. If he's bluffing a lot - great! You should be more than willing to call a player like that down with middle pairs and even A-high.

However - going four bets on the flop against that player isn't the correct strategy. In fact - since this player seems not only laggish - but tricky as well - I don't really like the flop bet. Not betting the flop will save you in many ways:

- You don't open yourself up to the c/r flop where you really should be folding to his turn lead UI
- Tricky lags also, IMO, tend to be somewhat reasonable at times - so there's a good chance he might fold to your flop bet when a check might give him the chance to improve his hand to something that's still second best (i.e. JT, A8)
---- When this happens, any bets that you've lost by checking behind on the flop can easily be recouped on the big streets
- checking the flop induces a bluff on the turn which this player will most ceratinly take the opportunity on
- If you're planning seeing showdown regardless you lose less when you're behind

I can understand if he leads the flop, turn and river and you call down the whole way. I can understand if he c/r the flop and you call down from that point until the river. I really like - from my assumptions of this player - checking behind on the flop and reevaluating on the turn (most likely calling down UI - and getting extra bets in improved).

I really hate that you're going four bets on the flop against a LAG with A-high.

[tsrcess]

[ QUOTE ]
Not a question of whether AJ can be beat, but whether it's likely that it is. I thought the flop 3 bet was reasonable to get a free look at the river. Again, his 4 bet seemed to be an obvious (possibly semi-) bluff, too - there is no possiblity this player doesn't wait for the turn with a 5. So, given that he's not holding a PP or a big ace (heads up there would've been a PF reraise if that was his holding - I've seen him 3 bet AQo and raise EP w/ 55) what's that leave that I'm behind to that's worth a 4 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]whoa-in my view, you're putting way too much effort and thought (and money) into your a,j small pot situation. can a lagtard never bluff you off a pot? so what if he does? is it the end of the world? i think a good rule of thumb is to basically believe people to be semi-sensible even if (at some level) you believe they are not. i don't like 3 betting here on the flop at all. i'll save my 3 bets and use them very judiciously (like when i think i'm pretty far ahead or i sense i have someone in my sights who folds to 3 bets too much)...