Alan Goerhing

[eboller]

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I watched the Wed broadcast headup action again just now. I had forgotten how beside himself Sexton was trying to figure out and explain to Vince (and the viewers) how Alan could have played that K8o for $6 million in chips.

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You might want to read Goehring's explanation for a context of the situation:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5953614

[whiskeytown]

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I watched the Wed broadcast headup action again just now. I had forgotten how beside himself Sexton was trying to figure out and explain to Vince (and the viewers) how Alan could have played that K8o for $6 million in chips.

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You might want to read Goehring's explanation for a context of the situation:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5953614

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understatement of the year - Alan played short-stack strategy vs his opponent - makes total sense the way he described it.

I don't know the hand, but the only way this hand could be taking up so much noise is if Alan accidently ran into a better hand and sucked out -

that always pisses off the poker elite - [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] - I use elite loosely of course.

RB

[John Shiznit]

i would say hellmuth tries to play a similar style. Despite what people think he is not an ultra tight conservative player.
The only difference is when people play back at Hellmuth he folds way way too often. I think i read an article where Daniel said Hellmuth was much better when he was younger because he did not back off pots as easy as now.
In order to play the small bet style most effectively i think you have to show that you cant get bluffed easily because otherwiese your small bets dont work.

[thekiller]

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i want to be clear however, i dont know much of anything about alan's style and have absolutely no idea how good of a player he is. he could be great for all i know.

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...fair enough.


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btw, id probably bet on alan goerhing in a poker tournament over any of the aforementioned poker authors. i hope that doesnt come off as disrespectful.

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what???

[TheMainEvent]

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I watched the Wed broadcast headup action again just now. I had forgotten how beside himself Sexton was trying to figure out and explain to Vince (and the viewers) how Alan could have played that K8o for $6 million in chips.

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You might want to read Goehring's explanation for a context of the situation:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...Number=5953614

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Whoa, undiscovered gem from that thread:

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heh I thought the idea around here was not to be results oriented

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Sorry, you are right. My old habit of playing bad and winning money is nothing more than a vicious addiction that feeds on itself and can not be easily broken. Note to self-----seek help immediatley.

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[What?]

I think Allen was rich before poker. It is alot easier to gamble up a big tourney when your already wealthy.

[Alan Goehring]

Wow, too much to comment on in this thread.

1. "Is it an effective strategy or just a method for exploiting weaker players?"

It is an effective strategy. The toughest field (100+) per capita in my opinion was the 2003 WPT $25k Championship, an event I won (runner up was Monte Carlo Millions 2005).

2. Quality of players in $10k vs $1k.

Easy answer, $10k tougher on average. Almost all people in $1k and $2k are locals. The $10k's comprise winners of live satellites, online satellites, and direct buy-ins (generally the best players nationally along with the better local players that didn't satellite in). All three sub-groups are better than the $1k and $2k players, on average. In exceptional circumstances a lower buy-in event can have a tougher field (e.g. WSOP $5k NL clearly tougher than WSOP $10k NL per capita, and the $5k Bellagio might be tougher than the $25k starting in 2006).

3. Unorthodox style & getting hated --- I certainly don't feel hated. There is a VERY SMALL group of players that think they are the best & are all knowing, and therefore it must be either "their way or the wrong way". I am certainly not going to criticize Dan Harrington because he plays different than me. As Howard Lederer pointed out, there can be different winning styles. I have noted on this forum that criticizing individual hands in a vacuum often leads to the wrong conclusion. I make more than my share of -EV plays by design for a VARIETY of reasons---- I would call myself an "ultra tricky" player, it doesn't mean I misplayed the hand. BTW, I don't care if people criticize my play (and it is perfectly OK if they think I am a terrible player), that is part of what discussion forums are about. I never said I was a great player or even a good player, I have only claimed that I have won money in the past.

4. My style being compared to Phil Hellmuth --- we have somewhat similar bet sizes, but that's about the only thing that is similar. We play very different hands from various positions, and play the hands quite differently after the flop. He puts a big emphasis on making great laydowns, I do not. Saying I play the same as Hellmuth makes me want to puke (no offense Phil), I would consider my game much more complex and myself a significantly better deep chip player. My style is closer to Carlos Mortensen or Daniel Negraneu.

5. Playing internet/live cash games --- simply not going to happen (Not trying to be a snob, just too much like "work", I would work on Wall Street if I wanted a job). BTW, I believe I would do quite well as I love to play at over 100x BB, and cash games are similar to the early stages of a $10k event. I think cash games require far more skill than smaller buy-in tourneys as well as the later stages of big buy-in events.

6. Emulating my play --- don't do it! For example, I believe opening PF for 2xBB total is optimal (for me, or I wouldn't do it), but probably would hurt most people since there are many other things we will do differently. Trying to emulate Gus Hansen would probably be a disaster for 99%+ of all players.

7. On having experienced extreme positive variance --- thanks for making assumptions, only time will tell. I don't think anyone in the world can maintain on a sustainable basis the 800%+ return ($4.6mm gross winnings) I have experienced in $10k & up events. My goal, after having fun, is to maintain the same top 10%/5%/1% finish/(cash) rates on $10k+ events I have experienced to date (14/9/3 based on 46-48 "attempts"), (second goal is to win $1mm in a single event----over/under is the end of 2009).

The end!

[dumbndumb]

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6. Emulating my play --- don't do it! For example, I believe opening PF for 2xBB total is optimal (for me, or I wouldn't do it), but probably would hurt most people since there are many other things we will do differently. Trying to emulate Gus Hansen would probably be a disaster for 99%+ of all players.


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Alan,

While I am sure the answer to this may be complicated, do you think you could briefly given an indication of the types of quality the 1% of players need to make this style effective?

[cbloom]

Alan, I doubt your style would work as well in cash games, because a lot of your power comes from people being scared to put in their stack. I think there's a pretty easy counter to your min opens, which is just reraising you strong preflop with anything decent. Most tournament donks don't want to do this because they're committing a lot of their stack, but in cash games you can risk your stack and rebuy if necessary. Anyway, it would be fun to see, you should drop by a High Stakes Poker session some time!

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4. My style being compared to Phil Hellmuth --- we have somewhat similar bet sizes, but that's about the only thing that is similar. ...


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LOL, indeed. Phil seems to try to risk the minimum, probing at the pot to get people to define their hands, then only putting a lot of chips at risk when he's very sure he's way ahead. You on the other hand disguise your hand and try to catch people and you're perfectly willing to risk your whole stack if you think you have an edge. I think you float OOP with something like AQ because you know if you hit an A or Q they won't expect it and you'll risk a ton of chips there.

Seems like you have some of the "Gigabet" concepts at work, taking -EV risks in some hands to try to get a big stack, because your overall equity if you can get a big stack is better than just the chip count would indicate.

[Alan Goehring]

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6. Emulating my play --- don't do it! For example, I believe opening PF for 2xBB total is optimal (for me, or I wouldn't do it), but probably would hurt most people since there are many other things we will do differently. Trying to emulate Gus Hansen would probably be a disaster for 99%+ of all players.


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Alan,

While I am sure the answer to this may be complicated, do you think you could briefly given an indication of the types of quality the 1% of players need to make this style effective?

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Regarding Gus you would need all the normal things (extremely smart, quick mind, great hand reading, etc.).

The two most difficult things would be,
1. Complete fearlessness plus more---not caring at all about the money (no matter how big the pot), while at the same time caring passionately about playing your best and winning is extremely difficult (after all, why care if no money is involved, isn't money the reason most people play?). I call it "controlled recklessness"---two contradictory qualities needed at the same time (most people are either too controlled or too reckless).

2. Natural Intangible --- can't be acquired. It is the way your mind works & how you think (partly it is having a "knack" for doing the right thing at the right time). Don't laugh, but being left handed would help.

Just my 2cents