The Myth of the Resume Gap

[jman220]

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The fact is, most people put gamblers in the same category as prostitutes and drug dealers.

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This might have been true before the poker boom of 2002-2003, but since then, it is much more accepted, especially with the widespread popularity of poker pro's who appear frequently on television.

[2ndGoat]

Sheesh. I expected some interest but not this much. Current status:

1) Closest job to former work- security operations center engineer (firewall/IDS administration, log review, etc)- I blew this one all on my own, didn't need any help from poker. I came the the interview without the interviewer's contact info, and when I mispelled his last name over several attempts to the front desk, they were never able to track him down. He has agreed to reschedule, and was not particularly upset, but of course I assume my chances are significantly diminished.
2) A job that's probably more repetitive than I want, validating the security of networking equipment and such with a government contractor. Haven't had the interview yet (though it's scheduled), but I suspect it's trained monkey work. We'll see... there's some evidence to suggest it might be more interesting than that but I dont know. Pretty good compensation and benefits, in any case.
3) Poker-related job- very promising, but since I've been asked to be quiet about the details, I will.

A lot rides on whether I decide I want to pursue a development or an operations career path.

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Poor recruiters have average clients and job openings, good ones the opposite. You will get exposure to less openings, but they will be relevant and interesting.


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Thanks for this post. Reminds me of a recent experiment I have performed on Myspace. I removed my "normal" profile, and posted one that was a brutally honest and somewhat quirky assessment of myself and, to a lesser extent, the world around me. Were I seriously trying to "market" myself to potential dates, the former profile would have been a safer bet. I believe my volume of random friend requests from attractive females has declined somewhat, but the average quality of personality has increased (of those that I've had IM conersations with).

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Whatever you do, leave the shades and ipod at home, and don't yell "I've GOT THE STONE COLD NUTS" if you sense the interview is progressing well [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Is that mean if the interview is going badly I can do my best Bill Filmaff impression?

2nd

[BradleyT]

When they ask, "Oh have I seen you on TV?" and you say, "No" the first thing that comes to mind is "degenerate".

[2ndGoat]

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Poor recruiters will ignore your resume based on Poker being a scary word
Good recruiters, or those that are poker fiends, will say - "Check out this poker guy - let's meet him tomorrow"


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Well, I will have to defer to your expertise, but my experience with recruiters is that they will send you on interviews where you have the slimmest of chances. I wouldn't get my hopes up because a recruiter is finding me interviews to send on.

I don't think it matters much if a recruiter is a poker fiend.(What % of them are, anyway). What matters is how the managers making the hiring decision perceive gamblers. If all of them are poker fiends (manager, mananger's manager and whoever else sees him in his 1st and 2nd interview) then maybe he gets a job offer. Being entry level, he certainly doesn't fit in the 10% that every employer is competing for. Even less so with a questionable resume.

As far as lying goes, the way I see it, employers sometimes can't handle the truth. All resumes are exagerated. I assume that most everyone that is competing for the job against me is exagerating or lying. The former director of FEMA lied on his resume and look how far he went before it was discovered. (Not until after Katrina). I would not be over-paranoid about that for an entry level job.

I don't believe everyone knows someone who plays poker. Because of the social circles we are in, we THINK everyone plays or knows someone who plays. Every TV segment I have seen about online gambling on the networks cast it in a negative light. Just because WE watch WSOP and WPT doesn't mean everyone does. I believe only a tiny fraction of americans watch these shows.

One doesn't have to deny he plays or has ever played poker or written a poker article. It could be viewed as a hobby. To bring it front and center when job hunting, I believe, is a mistake.

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2 of my 3 leads involve recruiters. In one case, I'm clearly qualified for the position as posted; the recruiter has suggested increasing my salary requirements and stated that I'm on of the top candidates he's located. With the other, I've had a lot of direct phone contact with the employer the recruiter sent me to and they're clearly very interested.

Based on your views about lying on resumes and your posts in general, I am drawing a tentative conclusion that you hold a significantly more pessimistic and/or nihilistic view of the world at large than I do. I doubt we'll come to any agreements about optimal approaches to job searches, and neither of us will be capable of taking any value from the other's assertions. You remain, of course, entitled to your opinions and worldview.

2nd

[Fishy McDonk]

You've already formed your opinion, settled on a strategy and announced to the world that the "resume gap is a myth" before your 1st job interview. Whether you value my assertions is irrelevant. You've already made your bed. Hopefully, anyone thinking about following in your footsteps can get value and/or guidance from this thread.

[2ndGoat]

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I saw the title of this post and got real ready to flame the OP. Then I read the post.

Just some background, I run a good sized department in a large company and I hire people all the time.

A gap in a resume is a deal breaker for me. Period. But I define a gap in a resume as precisely that. A gap in time in your work experience that is not explained.

What the OP did was present his poker playing as a profession and he did a tremendous job of it (the presentation). He didn't leave the 15 months blank or lie about it (a fire on the spot situation, if I find out someone lied about their 15 months after that fact). Lieing about that only sets you up for problems later and when the lie is discovered, the fact that you lied about being a poker player is going to make you look like a unemployed, lazy, degenerate gambler to the vast majority of non-poker players.

I guess the lesson is that presentation is everything. A well written resume and cover letter go a long way towards getting people to take a chance on someone willing to admit they were a pro gambler for over a year.

I'm not surprised the OP has gotten three interviews and he'll have a position soon if he interviews as well as he writes. Written and oral presentation skills can get you a lot further than you think.

For all you pros out there that may have to re-enter the traditional workforce at some point, the OP is your poster boy. Take some resume writing and interview classes also.

And OP, I would've given you an interview based on your resume and cover letter just out of curiousity if nothing else. But hey, a foot in the door is a foot in the door.

And forget IT, go get a sales job. You sound suited for it.

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Thank you for the kind words. I know I'd be good in sales, but it seems so hollow. For whatever reason I feel like I accomplish something meaningful when I'm doing technical work. I may consider a sales engineer sort of job someday... would still be half-technical, and then I'd feel more like a purveyor of beneficial knowledge then a peddler of widgets. I would enjoy the travel (at least at first) if nothing else.

2nd

[2ndGoat]

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I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread or not but something I've heard is a concern (and can see why) is that playing poker is like running your own business. You are the one in control and the decision maker answering only to yourself. Someone from this background can be difficult to manage and supervise and have problems functioning in a team environment.

I have heard some very successful people say they would not want to hire someone who has run thier own business for a long time for the above reasons. 15 months isn't long, but this is just some food for thought.

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It depends on the company. This is a valid point, though. Some companies see self-employed types as "disloyal to the man" and unlikely to stick around. Other companies embrace this type of person because they get more done and know how to be independent. If you are a self-employed type, I'd try to find a company who aligns itself and embraces this type of personality, because you will ultimately be more successful than if you work somewhere that frowns on this type of personality.

There are more self-employed people than ever before, so this type of profile is way more common than it was 30 years ago. So many people have internet ventures/businesses that companies who discount people with self-employment histories are really missing out on lots of great candidates. But like me and a couple others have said, those companies probably suck anyway, if they are insecure enough to not hire people with a work history that requires them to take some sort of initiative.

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This sub-thread has swayed me towards the one opportunity involing a small employer rather than government contractors types.

<rant>
And isn't the object of the game to be disloyal to the man whenever possible? He'll only keep you down! ...Sorry, sir. No, I didn't see you there and I didn't mean it. I'll get back to work now. You're right, sir. It was wrong of me to ask why the bureaucracy keeps expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy at the all-hands meeting. I'll be a good boy from now on.
</rant>

2nd

[2ndGoat]

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When they ask, "Oh have I seen you on TV?" and you say, "No" the first thing that comes to mind is "degenerate".

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Fortunately, I've been on TV once.

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You've already formed your opinion, settled on a strategy and announced to the world that the "resume gap is a myth" before your 1st job interview. Whether you value my assertions is irrelevant. You've already made your bed.

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My hope was that an informed reader would realize my title was facetious; in the original post I mention that I did indeed expect it to be a negative relative to a "normal" resume. Additionally, while I have one great offer to consider which I would have never seen if not for listing poker on my resume, I'm willing to accept that as a very improbably stroke of luck. The real reason for posting was:

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Hopefully, anyone thinking about following in your footsteps can get value and/or guidance from this thread.

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I'm surprised, we do agree on something.

2nd

[ilovebadbeats]

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Hola Amigos,

About 2 years ago I started one of those "should I go pro" threads... in my defense, it was before one was popping up on the boards every week. Eventually I took the plunge, and I've spent the last 15 months as a pro. I had some pretty awesome times, and it was pretty much everything I hoped it could be... with the exception that I planned on stocking away a wheelbarrow full of money. I didn't make quite the hourly rate I was hoping for, and I never managed to average over 24 hours/week of play.

I've decided it's time to get back to the real world. While one reason is that the games seem to have gotten a bit tougher in the last year, the main reason is I just don't enjoy playing any more, and I need a break. There's also the business of the internet gambling ban bill picking up steam. So now I've decided to post the compliment of that original "going pro" thread, the "stopping pro" post, if you will. I never know where to put these things, it's almost like we need a "career decisions" forum.

The one big question that people always raise when discussing whether to go pro is "well what happens if you want to go back to the real world? What do you do about the resume gap?" I've listed poker on my resume just as if it were a real job. The section usually looks something like this:

"Professional Poker Player
February 2005-current
Analyzed in depth the fundamental probability, game theory, and psychology of a variety of poker games
Responsible for statistically grounded capital management, accounting, scheduling
Published (and compensated) author of poker theory essays"

When I end up with extra space on a particular resume submission, I've sometimes added the line, "Television appearance on the 2005 Partypoker.com World Open (European Union)" which did sort of impress one guy I've spoken to.

I also always mention it in the lower sections of my cover letters, something akin to the following:

"I'd like to address a non-standard career choice: for the past 15 months, I have been a professional poker player. During that time I devoted my full efforts to study and practice of the game, as well as impeccable accounting, statistically-grounded capital management, and full disclosure of income to the IRS as a small business. The endeavor has been fully legitimate; I did not participate in any activities, illegal or otherwise, that I believe would compromise my ability to pass a background investigation. I now seek to resume my previous career path in Network Security with a position that will provide a greater variety of daily challenges than poker can offer."

The field I'm mostly looking in, network security, is one where poker is likely more of a problem than in most fields, especially since I'm looking in the DC area. A lot of the jobs are government related, and either require a clearance or require getting one. While I don't believe I've compromised my ability to qualify for a clearance, I think the clearance-oriented culture in particular would see that in a negative light, and even those that don't involve the government may be a bit squeamish in trusting their confidential networks to a former pro gambler. Despite that, I still decided to throw my resume (with 1.5 years full-time experience, a bunch of internships, and a BS in comp sci) to the 4 corners of the internet, talk to every networking contact I've got, and put on open resume on Monster.

So how has it worked out for me? Well I don't have a job yet, but things are going very well. After deciding to quit poker as a profession exactly one week ago, I've got 2 interviews today and a recruiter currently lining up a third... and not one of them has been from a networking contact! 1 is from a job I specifically applied to, 2 have been cold contacts based on my monster.com posting. (Beyond that, I've had a smattering of un-targeted financial planner stuff, etc.) Every one of them has asked about poker during the initial phone call, and none of them have had a problem with it after I've explained that I had a great run but "I'm now ready to resume a position with a greater variety of daily challenges." Now, to be fair, one of the positions is a coding contract which involves the gambling industry (I've been asked keep details private), and I consider those guys finding me on monster.com to be a rather freak occurance. That odd stroke of fortune notwithstanding, I've still got two other possibilites in the security field, one that would require a background investigation and one that would eventually lead to a secret clearance. I've got two interviews today, and both companies seem very interested in my services.

So the moral of the story, for those that have thought of taking the plunge, is that you CAN go back. Well, at least if you have marketable skills and know how to market yourself. Obviously I'd be looking for positions with higher pay and more responsibility if my resume had 3 years at my former employer rather than 1.5 there and 1.5 at poker, but all things considered, I'm really happy with the way it's gone.

2nd

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Great Post 2nd - Thank you for making this post!

And thanks to all the gents with a lot of Professional interviewing/hiring experience for posting as well! I read every word of this
post and if one thing is certain from everyone's responses, it's that
there's a wide range of possible responses you'll elicit by including "Pro Poker Player/Gambler" on your resume...

If it were me making the Resume, I would put the Poker playing in the "Hobbies/Interests Section" of my resume (along with playing Tennis, the Piano, Mountain Biking, etc.)...At the very end, and that's IF
that section was on my resume at all...

I would NOT put it in/under the formal "Work Experience" section.
It just doesn't mix with that type of "Formal Work Experience" that an employer expects to see there...It will certainly get attention and make you stand out from the crowd (if that's your intent!)
But (and most on here can attest to this fact), The 9-5 work world is just a different world from the freedoms and
true independence of "running your own business"/working for yourself...

If I was asked about the gap, I would simply tell the truth and try to put a positive spin on it (I would verbally tell the truth about it IF ASKED in an interview, but I wouldn't spell out all the details in print on my resume IF I chose to mention it at all on there...).
I would also probably be doing other things with my free time during the "gap" (like taking college classes, catching up on years of
leisure reading (scientific, legal, political, economic/financial, etc.) that I've had to put on hold b/c of lack of time while riding a desk 40+ hours a week...My POINT IS that I'd let the employer know
that I'm someone who uses his free time to "better himself" and
that I have a voracious appetite for learning and gaining knowledge in general, and that I am self-motivating/self-starting, etc.
I'm not someone who "gets high" and sits around doing nothing and
playing a "card game" for money to feed myself/pay my bills during a gap in my employment...
(no need to portray your full-time poker exploit in this light)

Poker is certainly not the "only thing" you did while there was that gap on your resume, Goat.
Someone else mentioned travelling...Can't you think of a few other [positive] things you did/accomplished during those 15 months?

Finally, I wouldn't want a job in the first place working for someone who would automatically dismiss my resume
if I put down that Poker Playing was one of my interests. But some employer's just want to
hire "mindless robot office drones" that will just sit there all day and be "Yes men" and put up with all kinds of boring and monotonous sh*t
that anyone else (with a breath of life, joy, and creativity still left in them)
would rather kill themselves before resigning to do during such a boring and dull/dreary 40 hour workweek existence...
But that's just my opinion.
Those guys hopefully will find the boring robot employees they are looking for by
immediately dismissing anyone who played poker or engaged in any type of entrepreneurial/creative behavior...so it turns out to be all-good...

You want a job that is a good fit for YOU personally, not a job that you'll feel
trapped in once you get.
And there is a much greater liklihood that you'll "get trapped" if you lie (to an employer on your Resume OR to yourself for that matter)...

Ps. In case you can't tell, I'm currently "stuck" in a job I don't like and I really can't see a way out...Sort of a psychological trap that I'm in...(I keep getting slight pay raises, I'm too afraid i'll be making a mistake if I quit, etc.; But deep down inside I'm longing to leave and find a place where I belong/fit-in... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

[Fishy McDonk]

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Additionally, while I have one great offer to consider which I would have never seen if not for listing poker on my resume, I'm willing to accept that as a very improbably stroke of luck.

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Anyone applying for a position related to gambling should definitely put their gambling experience on their resume. I suspect that there are very few such positions out there, so I agree, you have hit a "one-outer" if you have an offer already. Congratulations! I assume you will accept the offer. Hopefully, you can tell us your start date and give more details after you start. Even though you are unable to provide details now, you can at least tell us if the salary, benefits, etc. are in the normal range.