Guide for playing 99-QQ

[RubbleRobble]

if this shove is more than say, twice the value of your reraise, then you can be confident you are beat. remember, JJ is no AA (and AA is no set). however, if you reraised to like 25 (just for example) and he AI's for 35 or 40 total or whatever, id more ready to call, cause an AI on his part with so few chips is not always a sign of strength.

[Supesimmo]

YEa, didnt think so-its on Pacific Poker though-dont know how to get the HH's

[kidpokeher]

Great discussion everyone. Very informative. The only thing I'd like to add is there's a huge difference between the way I play QQ vs. the way I play JJ and below. QQ almost needs her own category.

Chance you won't catch a set but will be overcarded:
QQ - 37.84%
JJ - 51.82%
TT - 62.94%
99 & below - good luck

[Supesimmo]

Another question for this lively discussion

What sort of action/board is necessary to convince you that your overpair is no good?

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll repost, but this time hopefully say something serious.

I didn't bother to read replies to your question after they started seriously answering your question, so I apologize if I happen to repeat something that someone else already said.

At low stakes, and especially as a low stakes player myself, I realize that I am not nearly the reader that the higher stakes players are. Indeed its not even close to the most important skill to have or be developing at this early point in the game. For support of this statement I will only say that it's impossible to read an unthinking player.

That said, QQ and JJ are premium hands. You should not feel bad about playing these the way you described (potting preflop, and being cautious with them on ugly flops). 99 and TT, however, I have found through personal experience to be troublesome if played this way.

First, both this hands flop an overcard a disparagingly large amount of the time (JJ flops an over card 50% or so of the time as well-- if my memory serves). You are playing a game that morons frequent, and if you happen to have a few at your table, they will most likely be in your hand with you holding one of more card larger than a ten.

Second, attempting to read an opponent is disaster waiting to happen. That is why I play 99 and TT for set value. No pot raises pf, unless late position against one or two limpers (but this is mostly because you have position against weak opponents, not because your hand is a monster.) If you flop a set, bet. If not, fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

So, in other words, don't play 99 or TT too strongly, because the morons are luckier than you are and will always outflop you; if an overcard flops, it's always the one the moron is holding.

WTF kind of advice is this?

And by the way, regarding Isura's comment, yes, your sarcasm detector is trashed.

[matrix]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

A CB is when we are bluffing - It is financial suicide to bluff at more than 2 villains.

If the flop is good and we have say QQ then I'm not checking the flop I am *value betting*

If I have QQ and the board comes A high with no draw for me and there are 3+ other villains out there I am dropping my ladies faster than you can say "losing one pair hand" if I feel frisky I MIGHT throw out a flop bet if it's checked to me - but invariably I won't.

If I raise with QQ preflop I make a raise that is designed to get me HU on the flop - depending on the table I'm at it might be 4BB 6BB 8BB whatever it takes - if I still get 3 callers then I'm pretty freaking sure that my QQ is no good.

I don't autopilot my bet amounts - they are table specific. 3 callers to any one pair hand thats UI on the flop I think is always bad news whatever pair you have.

QQ is ~60% to win vs 3 random hands preflop.

If my (suitably hefty)pfr gets three callers you can bet the farm that they have better than random hands and my pretty looking one pair hands equity has just fallen through the floor.

I still think that one should not Continuation Bet(bluff) at ANY flop if all you have is an unimproved pair and your preflop raise gets 3 or more callers.

I would rather set fire to my money.

[bilbo-san]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


you aren't Cbetting at more than 2 villains are you????

Don't you might as well light money on fire.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking right? If one raises with QQ and get 3 callers you suggest one should CHECK the flop!?

You might as well muck preflop. That is TERRIBLE advice. You realise that QQ (or JJ or TT) is probably still the best hand most of the time, right?

I'll check UNIMPROVED overs if I get 3 callers. But a pair!? You assume an opponent always flops a better pair everytime you get 3 callers? Wow, you must play with some serious heaters.

[/ QUOTE ]

A CB is when we are bluffing - It is financial suicide to bluff at more than 2 villains.

If the flop is good and we have say QQ then I'm not checking the flop I am *value betting*

If I have QQ and the board comes A high with no draw for me and there are 3+ other villains out there I am dropping my ladies faster than you can say "losing one pair hand" if I feel frisky I MIGHT throw out a flop bet if it's checked to me - but invariably I won't.

If I raise with QQ preflop I make a raise that is designed to get me HU on the flop - depending on the table I'm at it might be 4BB 6BB 8BB whatever it takes - if I still get 3 callers then I'm pretty freaking sure that my QQ is no good.

I don't autopilot my bet amounts - they are table specific. 3 callers to any one pair hand thats UI on the flop I think is always bad news whatever pair you have.

QQ is ~60% to win vs 3 random hands preflop.

If my (suitably hefty)pfr gets three callers you can bet the farm that they have better than random hands and my pretty looking one pair hands equity has just fallen through the floor.

I still think that one should not Continuation Bet(bluff) at ANY flop if all you have is an unimproved pair and your preflop raise gets 3 or more callers.

I would rather set fire to my money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Puuuuuuullllease.

QQ is 60% to win vs 3. random hands that call all the way to the river.

Sooo...

1)You win more often than the other 3 callers
2)Your winrate increases dramatically if you bet the flop and 1 (or 2) opponents fold.

If you are checking A and K flops you may as well turn your cards face up. And you already ARE lighting your money on fire, so don't bother with your metaphors.

Do you check/fold KK when an A flops? What's the difference???

People calling preflop raises are VERY often holding speculative hands that they will be more than happy to fold when an A flops.

[RubbleRobble]

[ QUOTE ]
Another question for this lively discussion

What sort of action/board is necessary to convince you that your overpair is no good?

[/ QUOTE ]

The kinda where someone invests more than half their stack (or the action implies that this is gonna happen).

[RubbleRobble]

bilbo-san, without being too nasty, you are IMO a disease upon the forums. in your last three posts youve rudely critized people's advice (while apparently not even understanding said people's lines-- mine in particular) without giving advice to the OP on the way YOU would play the hand. Shame on you.

when i said that i limp 99 and TT because often there will be overcards, and often a donk will have one isnt saying that this is the case at all times, thus fold. what i am saying (and said origianlly) was that i play these hands for set value. What this means is limping PF (except in the situations i mentioned) because (especially from EP) a normal raise makes the pot on the flop larger than you would like assuming you have 2 or 3 callers. 2 or 3 callers is by no means a rarity at low limits. and if an overcard flops then you have put yourself (through your pf 3xBB raise) a) out of position b) in a large pot (need to win a pot increases proportionately with the size of the pot) c) against hands that might beat you d) with no information about the hands. Sure, you might have 30 percent equity or whatever, but that number will never actually manifest itself for a variety of reason. i could easily be wrong, but for these reasons i dont like playing 99 and TT like they were QQ.

why dont you try being a helpful member of the community, instead of unilaterally negative...

edit: just parused your posts in other threads and you dont sound nearly as negative as you do here. i guess ill chalk it up to varience.