Omnipotence Doesn't Imply Seeing The Future.

[BluffTHIS!]

omnipotent's definition is all-powerfull. There is no limitation to "all", and sophistical arguments to the contrary won't change that. David used that term, and your BS is exactly the same as if he had specified a god who was green in color, and then your trying to redefine/ambiguize "green".

[chezlaw]

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omnipotent's definition is all-powerfull. There is no limitation to "all", and sophistical arguments to the contrary won't change that. David used that term, and your BS is exactly the same as if he had specified a god who was green in color, and then your trying to redefine/ambiguize "green".

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you misunderstand me. The analogy with green wouldn't be about redefining green but whether god could be green and not at all green at the same time.

chez

[BluffTHIS!]

No, it would be about specifiying him to be all green, and only then saying he is both all green and not all green at the same time. If you use the word "all" but then try to limit it, then you need to find another word.

[chezlaw]

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No, it would be about specifiying him to be all green, and only then saying he is both all green and not all green at the same time. If you use the word "all" but then try to limit it, then you need to find another word.

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If by all powerful you are trying to claim that god can make both p and ~p true at the same time then that is incoherent.

Or you can use the word 'all' in a way that makes sense.

chez

[BluffTHIS!]

LOL. You are the one defining it that way, both p and ~p at the same time. Either that are you are saying it doesn't make sense that p is p. I'm through with this.

[chezlaw]

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LOL. You are the one defining it that way, both p and ~p at the same time. Either that are you are saying it doesn't make sense that p is p. I'm through with this.

[/ QUOTE ]
No I'm saying an omnipotent god cant do this. Hence there are things that can be said that god cannot do. Hence you cant dismiss DS's argument as simply as you tried to do.

chez

[toor]

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Not if you(the omnipotent one) are included in that future. Its similar to building a rock you can't lift.


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I am not sure what this means? In what sense can someone who is omnipotent not predict the future. Any test of being able to predict the future has to do with predicting it. Anything the omnipotent person predicts will occur (because he can make it occur). If that isn't seeing the future I dont know what is.

[IronUnkind]

I see why, but I leave open the possibility that an omnipotent being might be able to somehow inhabit these paradoxes (immovable objects/irresistable force) in a way which escapes human understanding. That said, since my understanding is, in fact, human, I would expect that you are right, and God's kingdom is a logical one.

[gmrankin]

David, i think the problem lies with this in that when you say "Seeing The Future" you are talking about something that is unknown to us, not God.

Definition Future: In a linear conception of time, the future is the portion of the timeline that is still to occur , i.e. the place in space-time where lie all events that still have not occurred. In this sense the future is opposed to the past (the set of moments and events that have already occurred) and the present (the set of events that are occurring now).

In my studies on religion I believe that God has a plan for my life. It is already set. Do i know what is going to happen? I am going to continue to work as an engineer, will i marry again, will i ever make money as a poker player? these things are already planned. God knows because it is his plan for me, but i do not... it is my future.

Further Reading... linky Some people love to attack this conception of God because they believe there is a logical flaw in it. One of the classic questions that is asked of students in Philosophy 101, in Introduction to Ethics, or in courses on Logic or in the field of Physics known as Quantum Mechanics, is this one:

Can God make a rock so big that even God can’t move it?
Think about that for a moment; it’s a tricky question. If you answer “yes, God can make such a rock,” then you’re going to have to explain why God’s inability to move the rock doesn’t constitute a lack of omnipotence. If, on the other hand, you’re going to say “no, God can’t make a rock so big that even God can’t move it,” then you’re again forced into explaining why God’s inability to make such a rock doesn’t constitute a lack of omnipotence. Ouch!

Yes, this is a tricky question ... it is tricky because it is a trick question. The question is designed to pit God’s omnipotence against itself in a contradictory framework of creation and manipulation. It is specifically designed to try and invalidate omnipotence altogether by forcing God to work at least two contradictory and competing actions at the same time.



God is Omnipotent

Definition:

The attribute of God which describes his ability to do whatever He wills. God's will is limited by His nature, and He therefore cannot do anything contrary to His nature as God, such as to ignore sin, to sin, or to do something absurd or self-contradictory. God is not controlled by His power, but has complete control over it; otherwise He would not be a free being. To a certain extent, He has voluntarily limited Himself by the free will of His rational creatures.

Meaning:

This means that if God says something will happen. He has the power to make sure that it will happen. Therefore, when He promises eternal life to those who believe in Christ, He has the power to grant it. Just as He cannont sin, He has the power to forgive those who do.

Scripture Support:

Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Job 42:2
I know that thou canst do everything, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Jeremiah 32:17,27
Ah Lord God! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Conclusion:

There is nothing that God cannot do except that which goes against His nature. God alone has the power to conquer sin and death. He even created Satan who disobeyed and fell, therefore, He has power over him. He promised to give us the power to overcome he that is in the world.

[diebitter]

Yah, but it does mean you don't have to care. Anything happens you don't like, you can just change it.