Pty 10/20 Weak fold?

kapw7 · #1 04-30-2006, 12:34 PM

Villain is 24/11/2 after 100 hands. This from datamining and no real reads (just joined the table).

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

I hate this kind of folds at 10/20 (BB defending-big pot- I hold AK) but 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] was one of the worst cards to fall (unfortunately villain knows that as well) and villain's stats look very solid.

What turn cards to you like or not like here and how would you play the rest of the hand for each group (of cards)?

Roy6 · #2 04-30-2006, 12:36 PM

I don't get the flop 3-bet.

Spy Dog · #3 04-30-2006, 12:39 PM

Flop 3-bet is bad. If you think he's on a draw then call his raise and call down if the board doesn't start completing possible draws. Obviously, the 9c is the worst card so it would have been an easy turn fold.

Remember, you will make more money when he bets his draw on the turn and river than when you 3-bet the flop and he gets to fold UI on the river.

MATT111 · #4 04-30-2006, 12:47 PM

I tend to just fold to the flop raise.
Turn is a very easy fold.

kapw7 · #5 04-30-2006, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the flop 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought was:
I think he has a draw maybe 60-70% of times. I probably have the best hand and I want to keep initiative.
If he has a pair, I have 6 outs and I don't think he'll bet it again on the turn where I can take a free card if I want and fold the river UI.
If he has a draw then I charge an additional small bet.

mmcd · #6 04-30-2006, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think he has a draw maybe 60-70% of times...I don't think he'll bet it again on the turn where I can take a free card if I want and fold the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you put him on a draw, 3 bet his flop raise, and are prepared to give him a free card on the turn and then fold to a river bet?

kapw7 · #7 04-30-2006, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I think he has a draw maybe 60-70% of times ...I don't think he'll bet it again on the turn where I can take a free card if I want and fold the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, you put him on a draw, 3 bet his flop raise, and are prepared to give him a free card on the turn and then fold to a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

MATT111 · #8 04-30-2006, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get the flop 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thought was:
I think he has a draw maybe 60-70% of times. I probably have the best hand and I want to keep initiative.
If he has a pair, I have 6 outs and I don't think he'll bet it again on the turn where I can take a free card if I want and fold the river UI.
If he has a draw then I charge an additional small bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a pair on this flop he very often has an ace with it so he has you reverse dominated. That`s one of the reasons why I think you should fold the flop.

Magikist · #9 04-30-2006, 08:59 PM

No. Incorrect. You need to make flop 3-bets like this sometimes. When you need to do this depends on the opponent and your image, but 3-betting a flop like this is not always bad.

Also, allowing someone to value bet you with bottom pair all the way is generally terrible. In a 5-handed game against any reasonably tricky/decent player, you usually need to be seeing a showdown w/ AK on an 8c7h2c flop.

If 3-betting the flop lets you see a free showdown, than you save half a bet against a pair, as opposed to calling down.

In addition, you can't always rely on players to continue betting the river with their bluffs, thus costing you another half of a bet.

3-betting also gives you a lot of flexibility. It gives you a chance to take a free card on the turn and induce a river bluff, or you can take a free card and fold unimproved.

If you are constantly losing initiative to a flop c/r from a BB defender on a board like this with AK, you are playing losing poker. Calling down is only the best option against a minority of players at the 10/20.

** Also, one of the most important points - a BB defender will often c/r a flop like this with very marginal holdings or complete air. If you simply call down and allow him to continue on and spike the river and value bet you where he would have otherwise folded to a flop 3-bet, turn bet (or at least not value bet you when you check behind on the river), that is a HUGE mistake.

Subfallen · #10 04-30-2006, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
** Also, one of the most important points - a BB defender will often c/r a flop like this with very marginal holdings or complete air. If you simply call down and allow him to continue on and spike the river and value bet you where he would have otherwise folded to a flop 3-bet, turn bet (or at least not value bet you when you check behind on the river), that is a HUGE mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa, doncha think that's a little fuzzy reasoning to justify blindly spewing off two more big bets?

Try looking at hand ranges, the pot size, and how much you're investing, and try to make this discussion a little more quantfiable. I think you may be surprised.